Persisting CV joint problem

[jure-slo]

Hello,

I'm having problems with my Cv joints since my first test drive.


My mail to the place where I bought them (VW Heritage in England), sent 3. may 2010, still no reply:

------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

are your ROULEX brand CV joints suposed to be of good quality? I
bought four piece from you (along with many other parts) and one of
them failed on my very first test drive. One ball was actally broken
in half.
So I bought one locally and have now driven about 800 km. Today I
noticed two boots have already split. I bought new boots repacked it
all with new grease and put it together. Now when I drive I can hear
the familiar sound of a CV joint that is about to fail.
I installed and greased it all per Haynes manual every time.

Are you getting any feedback about this from other customers?

I am satisfied with all the other parts that I ordered from you
including the Remtec engine.

Regards, Jure Stuber
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Recently the knocking became louder so i took apart the one that I though was bad and here is what I found:



And this is the ball from the one that broke on the test drive:



Are the parts simply junk or could be the problem that the ball doesn run in the middle like it should?

It probably runs like this most of the time:



The driveshafts are original, so is the auto trasmission. Haynes says to get rid of the spring washer that goes on the driveshaft before the joint but if I throw them out the joints will go a little together and the balls will run even closer to the edge...

What to do??

Thanks for any help.
_________________
'79 Bay-window, 2.0, duals solexes, automatic
'76 Triumph spitfire 1500
'86 Polski Fiat
'72 Mercedes W115, 200D

[busdaddy]

Are your drive shafts 2 different lengths? they should be, read this.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92078&highlight=shaft+lengths
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Wanted, 68-73 westy OG plaid curtains, singles OK.

[jure-slo]

Yes the are. I already read about that in Haynes manual.
I just measured the one I have out right now (passenger side) and it is about 505 mm, couldn't measure exactly because boots and one joint are still on, but anyway that seems ok acording to Karl.
_________________
'79 Bay-window, 2.0, duals solexes, automatic
'76 Triumph spitfire 1500
'86 Polski Fiat
'72 Mercedes W115, 200D

[Desertbusman]

The wear pattern should be more central.
Like mentioned, wrong axles would do it.
And is your bus lowered (or lifted)? That would do it as stock axle length on a different geometry suspension is not going to put the contact pattern in the center.
Is the joint installed on the shaft backwards? Chamfer end goes on the shaft first.
Not using the conical spring washer, like VW instructs, should give the joints more flexability in running in the proper location. Should be an improvement, not worse.
Are both the inner and outer joints running the same as each other? With the patterns both inward or both outward. And which way are they? Both inward or both outward. In other words, is the whole assembly too short or too long?
Like mentioned before, if the rear suspension isn't per stock specs the stock length axle won't run the way it was originally intended. The distance between the trans drive flange and the stub axle flange will be different.
_________________
The best thing that anyone can do for their Bay is get the Volkswagen of America Official Service Manual published by Robert Bentley. Without it the bus is pretty much doomed.

[cool karmann collected]

Terrific.

I bought one of those Roulex branded CV joint kits from Heritage to carry as a spare on longer trips, I hope I never have to take it out of the box looking at those pics

Heritage used to be my first port of call for parts, but lately (especially since the Meyle CV boots I bought) I've been wondering about the quality of some of their stock. This doesn't fill me with confidence.

Sounds like you'll need new boots whatever, so why not get these German made FEBI ones from JK, I did and will fit them soon.

http://www.justkampers.com/shop/type_2_bay/cv-boot-and-fitting-kit-j10069-251598201.html

They also sell GKN brand (GKN own LOBRO, the O.E. supplier to VW) CV joints but are out of stock at the moment.

http://www.justkampers.com/shop/type_2_bay/cv-joint-kit-j10276-211598101.html

Ant
_________________
Klick for my Karmann Kapers

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=441089&highlight=

[jure-slo]

Thanks for help guys, I'm going on holiday tomorrow so I will return to this when I'm back.
_________________
'79 Bay-window, 2.0, duals solexes, automatic
'76 Triumph spitfire 1500
'86 Polski Fiat
'72 Mercedes W115, 200D

[jure-slo]

Hi,

I'm back from a 800 km trip with the bus. It ran nice, didn't have a single problem.

Before I left I took both joints off of the shaft I had out, and disasembled them completely, wiped parts clean and put them together. Looks like I finaly did it right. I don't hear anything on the right cornes anymore which means both passenger side joints are ok. I will have to do the same thing on the drivers side shaft.

There are many different ways a CV joint goes together and even after reading directions on internet and in the Haynes book I missed something.
My joints had the notch on the outer race on the same side as the ''notch'' on the inner race. That caused the driveshaft to be too short when it needed to strech all the way (right corner for the passenger side shaft).

This is how it has to be (among other things):

(pic from http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_16_9/cv_joint_maintenence.html)


I am pretty much sure that I didn't take all the joints apart when first installing them, so could it be they put them together wrong at the fatory?

@ cool karmann collected:
can you please have a look how your spare joint is assembled?
_________________
'79 Bay-window, 2.0, duals solexes, automatic
'76 Triumph spitfire 1500
'86 Polski Fiat
'72 Mercedes W115, 200D

[cool karmann collected]

Yes, I will take some photos later and post them up.

Ant
_________________
Klick for my Karmann Kapers

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=441089&highlight=

[cool karmann collected]

OK, here are the pix of the joint in question. Same brand, same supplier, probably similar batch? I bought this in march of this year. Not sure what the random wiggly gasket is for though, it doesn't match the hole pitch of the CV!



This pic shows the face closest the groove in the outer race (labeled notch in previous post). The center part has a raised lip.



This is the other face, the center part also has a raised lip that is slightly smaller in diameter, however, neither could be described as 'flat'



Here is a close up showing the quality of the surface finish in the region where the ball moves on the outer race (are all new CV's like this ??) Also visible a various dents from poor material handling during manufacture.



And finally the CV boot that comes in the kit, Is this the one that split open after little use Jure?



I suppose the question is; Is it easy to tell at a glance whether a CV is assembled correctly or not?

Ant
_________________
Klick for my Karmann Kapers

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=441089&highlight=

[pjalau]

It's not that easy to tell from the pictures. Try comparing here?


_________________
elementhis.blogspot.com

[jure-slo]

@ cool karmann collected:

looks like you have a completely different Roulex Cv joint. And it seems to me it is even worse quality than those I have. Mine have the blue coloring
on the outer race that is left from when the material has been hardened (pjalau's pic). Yours doesn't have it.
And it is the first time that I see the inner part with the 'lip'' on both sides.What a mess!

The rubber boot is also different in shape and the material mine are made of was very shiny. I'd say your boot looks like better quality.


Is it easy to tell at a glance whether a CV is assembled correctly or not?

It's not that hard. First thing that must be correct is what I already described with the picture. The next is this:


The narrow part must be looking at the wide part and vice versa.
This will always want to go together the wrong way.

And the third, when the joint is on the shaft the groove on the outside must be facing towards the hub, in other words away from the center of the driveshaft.
I think thats all...
The joint on pjalau's picture is assembled correctly.

The joints that were originaly installed in my bus have lasted 30 years
And I doubt they were ever repacked with grease.
_________________
'79 Bay-window, 2.0, duals solexes, automatic
'76 Triumph spitfire 1500
'86 Polski Fiat
'72 Mercedes W115, 200D

[Wildthings]

The groove on the outer race goes toward the flange.

The bevel on the inner race goes away from the flange.

The clearanced side of the cage goes away from the flange.

In the pictures shown, the groove on the outer race is obvious. The bevel on the inner race is obvious, but less so. On the bearing shown I can not tell if the cage is clearanced differently on either side.

When properly assembled the inner race of the joint can be pushed further out one side of the outer race than the other. This is to give maximum extension to the drive shaft. Note that some joints seem to be more assymmetrical than others.

[Desertbusman]

What Wild guy said
This got into a big Samba discussion a while back. Difficulty is all the different brands are a bit different.
I think your failed joint on your first post was because the inner hub and outer body were assembled wrong. It wasn't assembled properly like your red and green arrows show. It locked up. Only thing it could do is shear a ball. It's not a matter of which way the hub and body are facing in or out. It's a matter of rotating the parts to the right ball groove orientation. The grooves, or raceways, on the inner and outer need to intersect each other in an X pattern. Not both running in the same direction. Your red and green markings are correct.
You EURO guys would be doing good to get the Bentley manual for this and other issues. It is VW of America's official manual. Actually the manual only mentions the spline chamfer facing towards the shaft. Doesn't mention the outer body.
_________________
The best thing that anyone can do for their Bay is get the Volkswagen of America Official Service Manual published by Robert Bentley. Without it the bus is pretty much doomed.

[raygreenwood]

To add to all of this advice....you have not metioned what grease you are using. CV grease is unique (if its CV grease)...and at worst if you are not using dedicated CV grease you must be careful on composition.

Although the grooves in CV joints should be quite smooth...unlike a ball bearing they do not have to be mirrored. They do not have high speed rotation like a ball bearing. They have sliding movement coupled with load. Their biggest issue is that it is difficult to actually get the balls to rotate much in their positions to equalize wear...unlike a radial ball bearing.
The blueing you see on these joints is typically from induction or flame heat treating. Ray