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is a freeway flyer tranny right for my beetle?
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hunza
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: is a freeway flyer tranny right for my beetle? Reply with quote

Dear Volks Folks.

I own a 1960 bug which is powered by a 1600 single port. I changed the tranny to a 67 swing axle while retaining the stock axles. (different nose cone) The car runs fine except that the tranny howls like crazy on the highway. The RPM's are way too high ( judging from the noise and not from any tacho readings) I am inclined to switch to a freeway flyer tranny but recently met someone who suggested against it saying it would heat up the engine when the RPM's fall. Can anyone please suggest what is the best option available for me while retaining the present 1600 SP? The tranny that goes in there has to come fully built as i know nothing about rebuilding those. It may be against the forum rules to suggest a manufacturer so if thats the case just private message me
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Motomazzo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Hunza,

My VW shop built me a FF transaxle, even though they don't really like them. The shop owner's main concern is that many people generally don’t know how to "drive" them and because of this, he would hear all kinds of complaints stemming from the car not being driven correctly. You're right. The VW engine is air-cooled. You need RPMs to produce enough air for proper cooling and a FF transaxle can perpetuate overheating issues if the car is driven incorrectly....for example, the driver using 4th gear to putt down an inner city street at 45 mph. I explained to my VW shop owner that this is a work car and I will spend a lot of time/miles on the freeway at 60-70 mph and as a mechanic, I am fully aware of the air-cooling needs of the engine. Also, he stated he would not put a FF transmission in front of anything less than a 1641 engine. You have to have enough power to "pull" the higher 4th gear. I had a bone-stock 1300 single port in my '66 and they're currently building me a 1641. This was the best compromise between enough H.P. to pull the FF transmission and economy. Depending on what you'll be doing with the car and how aware you are of engine rpms, etc., one might be right for you. Sounds like by your post you are already cognizant of your engine rpms.....so you're probably a good candidate. Wink

Moto
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hunza
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car has done more than half a million miles so i am just giving her a break, driving only on the highway (well mostly) and only between April and October (she hibernates all winter in the garage due to the salt they liberally apply on the roads) We go to three or four shows every year ( there is only that many trophies i can bring back to my house) and I try go to different shows each year. LOL

Now I am running a rebuilt from scratch 1600 singleport. I think it is strong enuff to pull. I may have to consider engine lid stand-offs just to be doubly sure.

I thank you for your input.

N.
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SlimJimVinny
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I never understood was... If you need RPM's to reduce heat, why doesn't your car blow up while idling?

Here's my thought. Your engine produces heat by running. The higher the RPM's, the higher the heat.

But, because the fan speed and oil circulation speed both increase with increased RPM's, the heat is controlled.
Less RPM's = less heat. Therefore, running less RPM's means less cooling is needed.

Therefore, using a fwy flyer to reduce engine speed = the engine is not working as hard = less need for coolingl. That's why you can drive at 40mph in 4th gear all day and not overheat.
But, at a certain point, the cooling system is maxed out. But that point doesn't happen before you run out of potential speed.
So, I think you can 'outrun' your stock cooling system.

My car will do 95mph, but I don't think I could do it all day in 110 degrees, (or at least I wouldn't). Also, VW's were designed for anywhere from 30 to 60 or so hp, with gear ratios designed accordingly. The RPM's are so high because they had to be to get you moving (think reduction boxes in a bus).
Also, the average speed back then was what? 50mph? 60mph?
Today, less than 75 and you're gonna get run over.
So, if you build an engine that has enough torque to handle a taller R&P, I don't think you have a problem.

Basically, the engine has no idea how fast the car is going. That's purely the job of the tranny.
So, lower RPM's = lower heat, regardless of vehicle speed.
Of course, you can't drive around with the engine turning TOO slow, because you're asking for trouble. Too slow, to me, is lugging it. But 500 less RPM on the freeway? I don't think the engine will suddenly suffer from inadequate cooling, especially at today's speeds.

If you really wanna know what's up back there, get a temp gauge and keep an eye on it. My 2 cents...
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hunza
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with your explanation. I have driven this car in 48*C temps at 65 miles an hour for about 4 hours straight without a problem. The only bit of doubt re. the inadequacy of the cooling system comes to my mind when I consider that the engine has to rely on the below the rear window intakes for a bigger engine than what came with the car. Not sure if its normal but its almost impossible to handle the dipstick after driving for a few hours on the highway. I have already put a 35 mm cooling fan that had a greater number of fins than another one I came across. (sorry but I forgot the count but remember that this fan has a few more fins and hopefully throws more air over the cylinders) I have also bought a part from mid America motorworks that (they claim) when added to the outside of the fan shroud improves the airflow (haven’t installed it yet but would this winter when I pull out the engine to replace some seals)
Looks like its thumbs up for the freewayflyer unless someone can convince me its a really bad idea. I'll share my experience with you next summer
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Teeroy Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: is a freeway flyer tranny right for my beetle? Reply with quote

Until you put a tach in the car and actually know what RPM it turning you are wasting your time. A beetle engine turning 3-3500 RPM (where it should be running on the freeway) makes quite a bit of noise.
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stuvw2mny
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing the "freeway flyer" trans will do for sure is to lighten your pocketbook.

Is it right for your car?- well that depends on some other issues. You said your car is a 1960 but with a 1967 transmission and a 1600 single port engine, but more info is needed to answer whether a FF trans right for your car. What horsepower does your engine provide? Is it stock? Your engine might not be able to "drive" a FF at freeway speeds except downhill with a tail-wind. Crying or Very sad As already indicated you need a bigger engine to drive taller gears.

What do you mean by "freeway flyer"? To most people that means a 3.88 axle ratio, which is a BIG step up from 4.375. Your stock 1960 trans had a 4.375 axle ratio. I think the 1967 tranny has that ratio also (memory is a little fuzzy, someone will provide the correct ratio, I am sure) There was a "stock" 4.125 ratio introduced in the late 1960s, and that might be considered a "freeway flyer" for a car with an original ratio of 4.375. Let's get some precision in what you mean, so everyone is on same wavelength.

What altitude do you normally drive at? It makes a difference in power your engine can develop to drive the transmission axle ratio. What is your desired cruising speed in mph? What is engine RPM?

A quantitative way to determine "rightness" for your car is to get the power and torque curves for your car and engine (info is available on Samba technical, probably) and compare the curves for your original and new desired transmission ratio, especially the highway speeds you want to achieve.

A cheap way to see if a transmission ratio change might be right is to buy or borrow a set of 4-1/2" wheels (5 bolt, likly for your car) and mount a pair of borrowed (hopefully, for economy's sake) big tires on them, put them on the rear and drive the car to "test" for performance. That will simulate a change in drive ratio. "Test" tires to try would be 205/75R15, 215/70R15, or (if lucky enough to fit inside your fenders) 215/75R15. Calculate the difference in ratio by measuring the circumferences (NOT the radius, because we are trying for some mathematical precision) of your original and the "test" tires and divide to get the ratio of the two. Then compare that to the ratio of you existing and the "freeway flyer" axle ratios. They won't be the same, but can give you a "seat-of-the-pants" feeling. Tachometer readings before and after the test will be very helpful!

WARNING - your "stock" 5 bolt wheels have a wheel width (measured INSIDE the rims) of 4". The bigger tires should have the wider wheel width. If you decide to go with this "test" configuration as a permanent solution you should try to get 5-1/2" wide wheels. Also, to get 65 or 60 or even 50 series tires defeats the purpose of your "test".

Believe it or not I tried to keep this short. This is intended to keep you from making an expensive mistake, especially if your car is truly a 1960 bug with a mostly or all stock engine. (You didn't explain much detail in your original post). The VW factory put a lot of engineering into selecting the right transmission ratio for a given engine, and cooling considerations, yes, were part of their work.

If you try the suggested "test" sharing the results and your feelings on the results would be beneficial to us all. Good Luck.
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Pintobean
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i drove my 388 ff behind a 1200 for about 8 years. No problems ever ... no over heating... no tach readings and horsepower stuff. I got it just because i wanted to coast on the freeway which is where most of my driving was. Only noticeable change to me was sloooooooow first and second... and loss of power up hill.... then again... it was a 40 horse.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slim jim...
Rpm does increase heat......i guess

but your missing the real "concern" with the freeway flyer transmission idea.
its not the RPM that you should be concerned about... its the load on the motor that the taller gear creates that causes heat... why do you think big rigs overheat while on mountain passes, steeper grade=more load on the motor=more heat. so think about it... taller gear makes the motor work harder no matter what speed which equals more heat. thats why running the motor at the right rpm becomes so important, your producing more heat at a lower rpm which means less cooling air for the motor..thats why you start blowing shit up.

and your car doesnt blow up while idling because theres no load on it.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuvws2mny wrote:
A cheap way to see if a transmission ratio change might be right is to mount a pair big tires on them


I did the same recently.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=421952

Added 2 mpg and 50 degrees of head temps through out the range.

Just put on some ICTs instead of the 36 dells, pulls better bug get another 10 degrees on top of the previous 50. Looks like I picked up another 2 mpg though.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: is a freeway flyer tranny right for my beetle? Reply with quote

A 67 has a 4.12 R&P (US cars)and as long as you have stock height tires is the perfect gear set for 1600.
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stuvw2mny
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrific input, guys!

Thanx, pintobean, for your driving observations with a 3.88 axle. and a 1200 engine.

Thanx for the "test" data and other freeway flyer thread referral, derluftwagen. Lots of really good info there.

Thanx for clarification of 1967 axle ratio, Teeroy. I was unsure because the stock 1967 engine was a 1500, as I remember. Your statement that the 4.125 ratio is perfect gear for (stock) 1600 engines observes what a terrific job the VW engineers did in matching transmissions to engines. That higher engine power can pull, and is needed for, lower (as in 3.88 ratio) transmission ratios is evident and intuitive. Everyone should know the factory designed the car to run at 3000-3500 rpm at factory speeds. If the engine noise is offensive, add soundproofing. Smile

Thanx especially for the temp info. Few people realize the effect carb mixture has on running engine temperature. Lean mixtures run hot, rich mixtures run cooler. So, if the running temp is hot try increasing the main jet by one size and vice versa. Yes increasing the jet size MAY decrease fuel economy a little bit, but that's not "wrong" if it makes the engine run as designed. Also, timing can affect engine running temperature. Fan speed isn't the only determinant of engine temperature. Leaky tin and crud around the cylinders aren't helpful either. Never forget the temperature studies Gene Berg ran and published!

I had exactly the same thought about adding a pair of Weber 341ct carbs, along with the freeway flyer trans, but hunza iddn't say anything about that, and it would add a bunch more money to his desired modification.
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SlimJimVinny
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOTW

I always figured my line of thinking was missing something, but nobody could ever explain what without saying "well, that's just how it works."

What you said makes sense, and I'm inclined to agree with you on general principle.

However...

(On a side note, there are no longer two VW's that are the same in regards to HP, engine performance etc. anywhere in the world. You and I may have the same engine in the same year car at the same altitude and same driving style, and something that works for you is terrible for me. I don't think enough people realize this anymore. Most people think if it's good or bad for their car, it simply MUST be the same for everyone else. Certainly not trying to imply this is you, I just think this line of thought isn't followed all the way through by a lot of people.)

I still think that a drop of several hundred RPM at todays freeway speeds will have a negligible effect on cooling. I'm basing this on my 62 with 1641, engle 110, 040 heads, merged header and dual kadrons, and stock tranny. When I'm doing 70-80 mph, my engine is howling. I'm pretty sure a drop of several hundred RPM would do it some good, not cause overheating. Having said that, I also have a hi volume oil pump and decklid standoffs.

I can't back this up with any numbers (temp gauge, tach, dyno readings etc.), all I can say is that's what I think. I know (by the ever-so-scientific dipstick hold method) that cruising at 60mph leaves the car cooler that 75mph. That's what makes me think I'm 'outrunning' my stock cooling system.

Of course, ugrading your cooling system is never a bad idea, but I feel that with my setup, a taller R&P would do good things for my car.

But since I'm too broke to get one right now, I guess It's all conjecture Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlimJimVinny wrote:
(On a side note, there are no longer two VW's that are the same in regards to HP, engine performance etc. anywhere in the world. You and I may have the same engine in the same year car at the same altitude and same driving style, and something that works for you is terrible for me. I don't think enough people realize this anymore. Most people think if it's good or bad for their car, it simply MUST be the same for everyone else. Certainly not trying to imply this is you, I just think this line of thought isn't followed all the way through by a lot of people.)

Bingo! Cool

The most accurate answer is often "It depends". One really can't follow someone else's recipe without knowing all those things on which that recipe depends.

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SlimJimVinny
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The most accurate answer is often "It depends". One really can't follow someone else's recipe without knowing all those things on which that recipe depends.


You put that far more succinctly that I was able to Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slim jim.thats exactly what i was getting at. i just felt i needed to explain the mechanics behind why the freeway flyer idea is such controversy. that said it is indeed fact that as you increase the capacity/capability of the engine, you can make more use of that taller gear and NOT overheat because the motor wont have to work as hard. but with a stock motor, and a freeway flyer, you take the motor past the limits of what it was designed for and thats where problems arise. what it all boils down to is application. in your case, with the motor combo you have you very well could make use of a higher geared transmission.

right now we have a 1915 on the stand, and a prostreet 4.12/.82 combo trans getting prepped for instillation, the owner drives mainly on the freeway, so we built his combo accordingly. thats whats its about, it really depends on what you want to do.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Freeway Flyer in a 1965 Notch . Reply with quote

I currently have a 1965 Volkswagen Notch Back , I am considering installing a FF trans-axle into it , 3.88 R&P , it originally had a 1500 Pancake , but that has long since left . I have a 1975 Porsche 914 2.0 Ltr . engine that I have just completely rebuilt w/ headers ... Purchased a conversion ( Lightened 17 Lbs. flywheel ) , that bolts to the Porsche to use the standard 200 mm Type 1-3 Clutch ....and original VW Type 1 Starter . I have not decided on Fuel Induction as of yet, Thinking of Dual 44s or a Single 44 with a T3/T4 Puffer attached . Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You also need to be sure your talking about the right freeway-flyer transaxle...

Some shops consider a 4.12 R/P with a .82 4th a freeway-flyer

Some shops consider a 3.88 R/P with a .89 4th a freeway-flyer

A 3.88 R/P will change your RPMs thru all gears and your engine needs more power to overcome this for normal driving.

If you simply want to lower RPMs at highway speeds go to a .82 4th...

Here's a great site for checking your RPMs based on gearing and tire size:

http://johnmaherracing.com/calculators/gear-ratio-calculator/

Good luck with your project
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Slow 1200
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: is a freeway flyer tranny right for my beetle? Reply with quote

Teeroy wrote:
A 67 has a 4.12 R&P (US cars)and as long as you have stock height tires is the perfect gear set for 1600.



^^^^^^what he said
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will check into the Final gear ratio of the top gear , the tires running at the present in rear 205/60/15 . The Porsche 2.0 Ltr should have enough Torque to handle either of these tranny ratios , But I would rather have the 4:12 R&P to give a stronger acceleration through all the gears .

THX
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