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Engine Cooling and Cabin Heating System Tutorial
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mnussbau
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would. When I got my sedan it was missing the thermostat and flaps altogether, and I made the distinct effort to locate and install them. As long as you maintain your car you should be fine. It's easy to check too...after a drive, especially in warm weather, you can look underneath to see if the thermostat opened, and then wait and listen (or watch) for it to close. You should be able to hear the flaps moving back.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also use a heat gun aimed at the thermostat on high, and you should see it open after a short amount of time. But yes, I would definitely (and I do) use a thermostat and flaps.
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73veedubya
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do the flaps have to be ran??? cuz mine is missing it...
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

73veedubya wrote:
do the flaps have to be ran??? cuz mine is missing it...

no matter if you have a thermostat or not, yes, you need the flaps. the flaps are particularly important for cooling in the summer time. the flaps direct airflow over the heads. the heads will run too hot without them.
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Max Welton wrote:

[air cooled vw's] are no longer suitable for the general public. The owner has to be be able to maintain the car. And that is after fixing all the deferred maintenance items and ill-conceived modifications. If you can't do those things you are pretty much screwed.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm not trying to bag on anyone, but the reason I wrote this whole article clearly outlines all the reasons the parts are installed. Have people stopped reading?

Please read the beginning, it explains what the flaps do other than just open and close.
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1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
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-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
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-034 SVDA Distributor

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qwerty8669
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torsionbar wrote:
73veedubya wrote:
do the flaps have to be ran??? cuz mine is missing it...

no matter if you have a thermostat or not, yes, you need the flaps. the flaps are particularly important for cooling in the summer time. the flaps direct airflow over the heads. the heads will run too hot without them.


the flaps help in keeping the engine warm and in correct operating temp
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qwerty8669 wrote:
torsionbar wrote:
73veedubya wrote:
do the flaps have to be ran??? cuz mine is missing it...

no matter if you have a thermostat or not, yes, you need the flaps. the flaps are particularly important for cooling in the summer time. the flaps direct airflow over the heads. the heads will run too hot without them.


the flaps help in keeping the engine warm and in correct operating temp

no. the thermostat keeps the temp within the correct range. the only thing the flaps do is vary how much air is dumped out over the cylinders, vs. redirected to go over the heads. read the whole tutorial and you'll understand, paul did a great job with it.
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Max Welton wrote:

[air cooled vw's] are no longer suitable for the general public. The owner has to be be able to maintain the car. And that is after fixing all the deferred maintenance items and ill-conceived modifications. If you can't do those things you are pretty much screwed.
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qwerty8669
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torsionbar wrote:

no. the thermostat keeps the temp within the correct range. the only thing the flaps do is vary how much air is dumped out over the cylinders, vs. redirected to go over the heads. read the whole tutorial and you'll understand, paul did a great job with it.


yeah the tutorial is great i have read the entire thing. but i had been awake for way too many hours and must have misunderstood (working third shift and trying to do so much around the house). i did see that it changed airflow over the heads and cylinders, but thought it also helped keep the engine warmer in the winter time.

i am looking to replace mine (P.O. took them off along with thermostat) what engine tin do i need , i am running a baja and read in a different post somewhere that a person didn't need all the engine tin on a baja, but i don't want to run the motor hot and really enjoy the amount of heat i currently have. and the flaps sound like they would improve on the heat system. more cabin heat is always welcome since i drive this car year round, daily


i need the tin that runs over the top of the cylinders for sure......and ????
still need to figure out where to get my preheat air from for the carb....but that is a different issue
a picture of the rear of my car is in my "build"
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68 swing axle baja ( making 4x4s look stupid )
67 F100 Big Block ( loud gas eater )
97 civic hatch ( grocery getter )
90 t-top 300zx 5speed ( ticket monster )
looking for swap meets and places to ride in ky and tn

my build ( gonna be slow ) can anyone tell me what my seats came out of....???
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=495087&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

car's facebook page ... like it !!

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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had a Baja, I would still run all the parts. Others will tell you different perhaps, but my opinion is I would run all of it, except the rear breastplate, and the front plate that goes over top of the trans bell housing. The thermostat may be even more imperative on a Baja because the engine has more access to cool fresh air.
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1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

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qwerty8669
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:
If I had a Baja, I would still run all the parts. Others will tell you different perhaps, but my opinion is I would run all of it, except the rear breastplate, and the front plate that goes over top of the trans bell housing. The thermostat may be even more imperative on a Baja because the engine has more access to cool fresh air.



danke
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68 swing axle baja ( making 4x4s look stupid )
67 F100 Big Block ( loud gas eater )
97 civic hatch ( grocery getter )
90 t-top 300zx 5speed ( ticket monster )
looking for swap meets and places to ride in ky and tn

my build ( gonna be slow ) can anyone tell me what my seats came out of....???
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=495087&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

car's facebook page ... like it !!

http://www.facebook.com/68bajabug?ref=hl
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djway3474
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I know the curved arm on the passenger side flaps was bent because when I tried to manally move the rod on the thermostat it was binding somewhere inside the fan shroud I belive.
I bent the arm on the flapper itself and freed the movement but I am not sure if I bent it too much. I did the old therm adjustment of move it up until flap completely open, tighten bracket them drop the thermostat down and bolt it on. It did not seem to close the flaps that much when I did so I am thinking the curvature of the arm may be off and not obtaining full arch of swing with thermostat movement.
I need a reference pict. please.
Also when flaps are comeplety open air goes straight down and does not get directed more toward the heads or so it appears. When they are partially closed does it appear more air goes to the heads.
the more picts of the flaps themselves out of the fan shroud the better. Thanks
DJ
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olspeed
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:
If I had a Baja, I would still run all the parts. Others will tell you different perhaps, but my opinion is I would run all of it, except the rear breastplate, and the front plate that goes over top of the trans bell housing. The thermostat may be even more imperative on a Baja because the engine has more access to cool fresh air.


I would still leave the front plate that goes over the bell housing in on a Baja because it stops water from getting in to the fan itself. Try crossing a creek with that thing missing and just see how much the RPM's drop from the fan becoming a water pump!
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mnussbau
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djway3474 wrote:
I need a reference pict. please.

Flaps open (doghouse).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Flaps closed (shown on non-doghouse, don't have a pic of doghouse closed).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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djway3474
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mnussbau wrote:
djway3474 wrote:
I need a reference pict. please.

Flaps open (doghouse).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Flaps closed (shown on non-doghouse, don't have a pic of doghouse closed).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

thanks for the picts but they do not show the part I need to see. The rod goes from the thermostate to a "curved" arm on a flap. I need to see the "curved" arm on the flap and it is not shown well in these pictures. If that curve is bent incorrectly you won't get much movement in the flaps. The more I conisder mine the more I think there is not enough curve in it. Any help out there?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Cooling and Cabin Heating System Tutorial Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:

The heat exchangers incorporate the exhaust pipes on both front cylinders (#3 and #1). The pipe has a large finned heat sink around it, and around that is the external body of the exchanger. It should be noted that many aftermarket heat exchangers have a lesser amount of fins, or lack them altogether. This is important because the less fins they have the less surface area they have, which equals less heat transfer, which equals less heat available for the cabin.

Here is a cross section of an OE heat sink, borrowed from another thread:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Not that it is terribly important but just thought I'd add it anyway, there actually are OEM German heaterboxes that lack the alloy heat sink.
In warmer climates like here in Aus the heavy heaterboxes with the heat sink weren't needed.

I've owned several 73 onwards bugs and they have all had heaterboxes with no heatsink, just a J-pipe with the heaterbox shell.
All original German, I've got the factory ones from my 74 super still sitting in the shed, both date stamped 4/74 like the rest of the cars parts. (speedo, wheels, air filter etc)
I found them adequate but then I don't feel the cold much and cold here is probably summer time temps in other countries.

Also not all of them have that figure 8 style shape internal pipe.
I have some 72 OEM heaterboxes (last year of the heatsink ones in aus) that have had the outer shell cut off.

They are just J-pipes with the alloy heat sink cast onto them.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How's this?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mnussbau wrote:
How's this?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Thanks that is a lot better. If you happend to have a picture from the bottom angle with the flaps closed that would show me the perfect angle. If not I can probably figure it out.
Thanks again
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mnussbau wrote:
Found it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I really appreciate the help but this angle does not show the curved arm attached to the flaps which is the part that is bent on mine. With them closed you would need to flip them over to see the curved arm that attached to the bellows pushrod. I really do appreciate the effort you are making.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: More troubleshooting Reply with quote

Paul was kind enough to email me some additional information, in case you were looking for other areas where there may be a leak.


"If there is exhaust leaking into the heater box, it could be from a few different places. First, the most common place I've seen is the connecting joints where the heat exchangers couple with the muffler. If this joint leaks, exhaust gasses are pushed directly into the heat exchanger outer shell. Make sure they are sealed well at the joint. Another issue could be that the exhaust pipe inside the heat exchanger has developed a hole and is leaking internally. The way to test it is to remove the heat exchangers, seal one end of the exhaust pipe (either at the muffler end or the end that attaches to the cylinder head) and then pressurize the other end and listen for leaks. The bulbs on the top of the muffler are just sheet metal shrouds around the pipe, so inspect those pipes for holes and leaks as well.

Having the engine well sealed where all the cooling tin meets the body is also imperative. Normal exhaust fumes from the tail pipe can be drawn into the fan if the seal is in poor shape.

Lastly, I have found that OCCASIONALLY, I get a whiff of exhaust once in a great while, and I think it is just normal exhaust being drawn into the engine compartment through the cooling slots in the decklid. I only get them if I idle in one place for an extended period of time. If this is your case as well, there might not be anything to do about it. But, you definitely want to make the other checks to be sure. When I suspected exhaust fumes in the car, I purchased a battery powered carbon monoxide detector from Home Depot and drove around with it in the car for several days to see what levels of carbon monoxide were entering the cabin. I bought one that would actually display the level (in parts per million) of carbon monoxide, rather than the less expensive detectors that just beep when a predetermined level was reached. After my tests, I installed it in my kitchen. I found the joints that I mentioned to you first, leaking and pushing fumes into the cabin. I swiftly took care of the problem by replacing the joint seals and hardware, and I coated the seals with muffler putty to ensure a good seal. Exhaust fumes are nothing to screw around with! "

Good luck,
Paul
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