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Engine Cooling and Cabin Heating System Tutorial
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EZ Gruv
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am missing one of the wires that control the flaps under the rear seat (the wire that physically attaches to the flap). Has anyone successfully made one as a replacement?
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to try some junkyards around your area. I don't think they are made anymore. You may also want to check with some industrial supply places, some of them have cables of various sizes. Mine doesn't have rear heat, so I have no first hand experience.
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striider
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK just got used parts in to replace my thermostat, and I think I am missing an adapter nut or something to attach it to the lever that goes up to the flaps. My thermostat looks exactly like the on in this picture, but the top of the thermostat has a male threaded fitting, not female to attach to the rod. Am I missing some adapter brass fitting or something?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Crap, I think I need a type 1 thermo, and I bought a type 2! Looks the same, but with the brass thingy on top?

I think I am missing the mounting nipple shown in this photo. Anyone have an extra laying around?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Oldchevyguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EZ Gruv wrote:
I am missing one of the wires that control the flaps under the rear seat (the wire that physically attaches to the flap). Has anyone successfully made one as a replacement?


Just bought one from CIP1 for my '74.
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EZ Gruv
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldchevyguy wrote:
EZ Gruv wrote:
I am missing one of the wires that control the flaps under the rear seat (the wire that physically attaches to the flap). Has anyone successfully made one as a replacement?


Just bought one from CIP1 for my '74.


Got a link or part number? I surely cannot find it on their site.
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cphipps79
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AWESOME TOPIC! I have had alot of questions about VW heat, and its amazing to me how many people don't have the complete system and just accept the fact bugs dont have heat
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tsavman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is keeping the flaps closed (aka no warm air coming to the cabing) helping the engine to warm-up faster in the cold mornings? Or is that completely irrelevant?
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It won't make a difference because when the flaps are closed, the air is escaping through the vent on the top of the exchanger.
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Engine cooling and Beetle heat Reply with quote

Tele68 wrote: "You should submit this to Hot VW or some other magazine for publication or make print outs available that VW shops could hand out to new owners...The majority of newbs out there could use this...when I was a newb, I figured it out on my own but it took a long time, a few mistakes and a few reads of Bentley and Haynes to get it right...(and I'm a graduate Engineer by trade....)"

An article on VW Engine Cooling has already appeared in Dune Buggies and Hot VWs (DBHVW) - look in the October '81 issue on page 16 in the Tech Talk column for a letter from Gene Berg about exactly this subject. I used to have every issue of DBHVW starting with Feb. '70 all the way through most of 2001. I moved in 2003 and sold all my issues but one - the October '81 issue - kept precisely for the above mentioned article. I didn't know much about VW engine cooling at all before reading Berg's letter.

He mentions in the beginning an earlier letter or article - I was unable to find it - that apparently had errors or falsehoods about external oil coolers. Anyway, after reading Berg's letter, I sold all the parts I'd been accumulating for mounting an external cooler and made sure all parts of the stock system were present and in good working order. I even installed an oil temp gauge - something I've seen only rarely on other VWs.

To my mind only three gauges are absolutely necessary on the air-cooled VW: Oil Temp, Oil Pressure, and Voltmeter. The reasons first two should be obvious, but why the voltmeter? It's a lot of trouble to install an ammeter (NOT amp-meter - look it up!) into the rear-engine car - the wire runs are too long. My idea - never implemented - is to install the ammeter in the that panel just below the rear window - and read it from the rear-view mirror!

After all, you're looking for deflection from the center zero toward the positive - the indication that the battery is charging. The bad part about this is finding a 30-0-30 ammeter - the commonly available 60-0-60 unit deflects so little in most applications as to be almost useless. A 60-amp unit is useless in a car where alternator (or generator) output rarely, if ever, reaches 30 amperes. Add up the currents used in a running VW - daytime as well as nighttime - and see for yourself. I'll write later about current usage in the air-cooled VW.

So, what does the voltmeter do for you? Connect a multimeter set on one of the lower ranges (0 to 15V, say) across the battery and run some tests. Use long enough cables and put the meter on the passenger seat or have a friend hold it up so you can both drive and observe the meter. On starting you'll notice a momentary dip below the at-rest 12.5V, followed by an immediate rise to 13V and a slower rise to 14 to 14.5 V - the sure sign that the battery is receiving a good charge. Now start turning things on: running lights, headlights, wipers, signals or hazard flashers, horn, and finally hit the brakes - all the time observing the voltmeter. What you should see is a momentary dip in voltage followed by a rise back to 13 or 14 volts. This is the action/effect of the regulator - its detects a slight drop across the battery and allows extra current to pass through the rotor (in the alternator) to increase the field density sweeping the stator coils - thus generating a higher voltage to push more current.

I know - I went off subject but I do get carried away when it comes to installing mods on the VW.

More later on request - always willing to answer questions.
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Beetlebaum
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AWESOME! This is exactly what I need to get the heat going on my Beetle! Very Happy
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject: Heat in the VW Bug Reply with quote

I forgot to echo everyone else here about what an awesome article yours is, Paul - it's definitely not too long for all the much needed information and photos. My 1st VW was a '57 sunroof I bought from my neighbor. It was sitting in his back yard when I bought the place next to him and occupied in May '79 - the back was high indicating the lack of an engine. I asked if he wanted to sell - he quoted $75 and I gave the money to him the next day - and he helped my push it over to my drive. Then he said I should have the "blown up" engine that he's removed - a 40-horse with a sucked valve. He also said it had NO heat, saying his drive to work could only be accomplished with frequent wiping of the inside of the windscreen - I looked at the engine and it had the pre-64 sheet metal.

In short order (amazing in the days before Craigslist) I acquired a '66 1300 motor with a bad fuel pump - swapped fuel pumps - and had the car running less than two weeks after acquisition. I went completely through the tin on the engine, tightening up bolts, testing the thermostatic control, and cleaning out all the dust and dirt from the fan housing. I drove the car around to his driveway and said "Get in" and started up around the block with the heater valve - the little knob on the tunnel next to driver's seat - all the way open. He immediately brushed at his hair getting blown around by the hot air coming from left side windscreen heat outlet. He was totally surprised and amazed at the heat and airflow possible with the newer system. After a few minutes I had to crank it way down - it was at "move you out of the car" temps.

On a long drive from Seattle to Eugene I learned that 6 half-turns of the knob from closed was enough to keep me comfortable. There were probably 20 half-turns available, so 6 is not opening the flaps in the heat exchangers by very much. There was sufficient leakage around the little flaps covering the floor outlets to keep my feet warm - almost too warm.

Presently, I have a 67 Bug that I've been working on. It's driveable - I drove it home from purchase - but the push rod tubes leak and I'm restoring the package tray with fiberglass. Every week or so I start up and drive around the blocks near my house in Burien, WA - mostly for the sheer fun of it but also to check if I'm making any progress on reducing the road and engine noise through my package tray restoration, but also to test my ministrations to the heating system. This last weekend - Jan. 8th, 2011 - I put the long probe of a brewers thermometer down the driver's side heater outlet and monitored the temp through startup and shutdown 15 minutes later - it was 33F outside. The temp climbed to 120F and was still climbing when I shut down. The heat only works on that one side and still heated the entire interior in short order.
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Restored battery pan & package tray
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mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would like to see an addendum to this article that discusses the pre-heat function of the oil bath air cleaner. the carb pre-heat pulls hot air straight off the right side cylinder head and helps the engine to quickly reach its operating temperature in the winter time. there were a variety of designs, one was actuated by a rod connected to the fan shroud flaps. another had its own internal thermostat. there are several other variations.
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torsionbar wrote:
i would like to see an addendum to this article that discusses the pre-heat function of the oil bath air cleaner. the carb pre-heat pulls hot air straight off the right side cylinder head and helps the engine to quickly reach its operating temperature in the winter time. there were a variety of designs, one was actuated by a rod connected to the fan shroud flaps. another had its own internal thermostat. there are several other variations.


I don't know that carb pre-heat has that much to do with engine warm-up time, though it may help some. Far more significant is prevention of icing in the entire intake tract when carb pre-heat is used. My specific example is my old '57 sunroof bug. When I installed the '66 1300 engine to get the car running the heat tubes in the manifold were plugged solid with carbon and as soon as the temps here in Seattle fell below 50F the manifold would acquire a coating of frost. It would go away after a few miles, but when the temps began to dip into the 40s, and even lower, keeping the engine running long enough for things to warm up in the engine compartment was a chore.

I didn't have a stock VW air cleaner - instead I was using a common aftermarket part found at http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2786 - if that link doesn't work see Chirco part #CPR129265. Two things were happening: The outside surface of the element was quickly getting filthy from all the dust flying around in the engine space and the utter lack of any carb pre-heat was allowing frost, and in colder weather, ice to form at the T in the manifold and on the carb body itself.

I modified the air cleaner using a piece of all-thread to use the Corvair element FRAM PL169 - AND fashioned a cover using a metal coffee can - the kind you can't find anymore. That helped immensely at keeping the outside surface of the element cleaner longer but didn't do anything to prevent or even reduce the icing.

So, I found a mangled VW air cleaner, cut from it the pre-heat hose fitting with some of the surrounding metal, and pop-riveted it to outside of the coffee can cover. Then I ran the standard pre-heat tubing down to the left side of the engine and clamped that end onto the sheet metal under the push rod tubes - where the fan should be blowing warm air right into the open end of the tube. It worked! It prevented any further icing - even when I eventually changed to a Baja-style rear end - even in the coldest weather. We'll always get a day or three of temps in the teens in December or January. My pre-heat tube setup worked great.

I'll do the same thing with my 1967 Bug. Fortunately, I have a coffee can I'm using for parts. I'll put the parts into one of the newer plastic coffee containers and re-task the can.
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1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb77305 wrote:
torsionbar wrote:
i would like to see an addendum to this article that discusses the pre-heat function of the oil bath air cleaner. the carb pre-heat pulls hot air straight off the right side cylinder head and helps the engine to quickly reach its operating temperature in the winter time. there were a variety of designs, one was actuated by a rod connected to the fan shroud flaps. another had its own internal thermostat. there are several other variations.


I don't know that carb pre-heat has that much to do with engine warm-up time, though it may help some. Far more significant is prevention of icing in the entire intake tract when carb pre-heat is used. My specific example is my old '57 sunroof bug. When I installed the '66 1300 engine to get the car running the heat tubes in the manifold were plugged solid with carbon and as soon as the temps here in Seattle fell below 50F the manifold would acquire a coating of frost. It would go away after a few miles, but when the temps began to dip into the 40s, and even lower, keeping the engine running long enough for things to warm up in the engine compartment was a chore.


perhaps my terminology is not correct, but i am not referring to the intake manifold tubes that heat the carb and manifold using hot exhaust. what i am referring to, is the hot air intake function of the oil bath air cleaner, whereby it feeds hot air directly from the underside of the cylinder head, into the carburetor.

allowing the engine to breathe hot cylinder head air versus freezing cold ambient air makes a significant difference in engine warm up time. the factory would not have installed this system if it weren't effective.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torsionbar wrote:

allowing the engine to breathe hot cylinder head air versus freezing cold ambient air makes a significant difference in engine warm up time. the factory would not have installed this system if it weren't effective.


that preheats the air when it's cold to help keep the fuel vaporized... it doesn't help the engine warm up faster, it makes it driveable when cold...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:59 am    Post subject: Great Explanation of Heat/Cooling Reply with quote

Great article for us new guys. Is my 1974 S Beetle Convert suppose to have a thermostat like the first photo in the article posted by Paul ? If it is missing on my car, does that mean the cooling fins flaps in the cooling shroud are full open or full closed? Thanks
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The flaps will be full open with the thermostat out (assuming the flaps are still there). Running it this way will not allow the engine to completely warm up and will also result in mediocre heat output. Look for flat head screws along the base of the fan shroud and look for the thermostat rod to be hanging down on the 1-2 (right) side. If you have these parts, then you just need a thermostat.

To answer your original question, yes your car came with a thermostat. It has probably been removed by a previous owner who has more knowledge than the VW engineers. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just recently got my heaters working in my 69 baja. I was going camping, and we where expecting snow, so i got them set up ricky-dick quick. I didnt really test them before i left to see how they work. So now im driving down the freeway for 4 hours enjoying the smell of my exhaust and worrying about the carbon monoxide molecules permanently attaching to the hemoglobin on the red blood cells in my body. GREAT!! Very Happy

So what can be done about a leaky heater box? I havent tried testing the heater box air with a CO tester, but im pretty sure that since i can smell exhaust and my "fire wall" is closed up pretty well, the heater boxes are leaking gasses.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that doesn't automatically point to a bad heat exchanger... exhaust leak at the "donut" gasket is a common place for exhaust to enter the heat system... add to that, you have a baja which means open engine compartment. this could allow a swirling action of the air behind the car that can actually feed exhaust into the fanshroud...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: THERMOSTAT Reply with quote

Since I have been unable to crawl under my car due to recovery from surgery, I don't know if the slime-ball who sold me this car removed the thermostat, as he pretty much had removed other items before he shipped the car to me. See my posting under:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457149&highlight=

This pretty well explains the fraud I was subject to. But, I also take responsibility for being a fool enough to believe in the basic honesty of people. My bad.

Anyway, let me ask this.

1. louvers.......are they available for purchase, and do I need to pull the engine to install them?

2. thermostat.....also, available for purchase?

3. if the louvers are there, and when I am physically able to get under the car, would it be better for me to manually fully close or fully open them? I will be driving the car only in warm months of the Midwest.

4. if I want to note my fraudulent e-bay buying experience with other Samba members, under what TOPIC would I post it? ( Just in case any of you know this answer)

Thank you for your knowledge.
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