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Engine Cooling and Cabin Heating System Tutorial
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The louvers are available used in the classifieds here. If you contact Antonio Trejo, he may be able to get new ones as well. The thermostat is available used in the classifieds and new, however it is no longer made, so expect the price to reflect that for a new one.
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1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

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2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

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JoshuaJayG
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can get you a used thermostat for about ten dollars. And maybe find the bracket with it. PM me if you are interested.

Joshua
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Cali Canuck
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:
Paul Windisch wrote:
Pghpunkid wrote:
Im trying fix my heat and had a few questions. Where does the heat actually come in the car? My car is missing a lot in the back seat area and am trying to get heat working before winter kicks in fully. I see the tube right behind the driver seat but is that a tube that is supposed to connect to something in the back?


OK, the heater channel comes in the REAR firewall under the back seat bottom. Then, there is a "Y" shaped metal junction that is full of little holes. That "Y" connects the channel from the rear, then one leg of the "Y" goes to the heater channel to the front of the car, and the other leg goes to the rear heater outlet, in the kick panel under the rear seat bottom at the FRONT of the rear seat. The "Y" is full of holes to reduce noise and is supposed to be wrapped with an insulating blanket.


Here is a pic of the "Y"'s. They are wrapped in the foil, so it is hard to distinguish their shape. Note the outlet hole for the rear in the kick panel, just above of the pliers.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a pic with the insulating blanket removed, you can see it in the lower right corner of the pic, the black metal tube with all the little holes in it:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I want to know where and how you fashioned those 'insulting blankets'?
I really want to redo mine and the previous ones seem to have an oily residue that I am sure will not leave the best odor.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I could help you answer that. Those are not pics of my car; My car is Mexican and has no rear heat outlets, henceforth no "Y"'s. I think you could fashion some of those blankets from some fiber insulation normally found under the carpet behind the rear seat, though. Heck, honestly, you could probably even wrap some knee-high wool socks around them! An old piece of blanket even. As far as actual parts designed and sold for the purpose though, I don't think they make them anymore.
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1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:
Heck, honestly, you could probably even wrap some knee-high wool socks around them! An old piece of blanket even. As far as actual parts designed and sold for the purpose though, I don't think they make them anymore.
My 1967 bug has the "Y" pipe with the outlet into the rear seat kick panel - and I've blocked off that part into rear. I'll probably cut that pipe and run one of those flexi-aluminum tubes as a connector. I used that same flex tubing between the engine heat exchangers and connectors leading into the car in my '57 - never had a problem with it.
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Mike
1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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emu88
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first got my car I had a tantrum trying to re-fit those Y's and I broke the fibreglass outlets coming from the heat exhangers Sad

Even without them it's damn difficult to install them without bending stuff, nay, impossible!
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cali Canuck - I really like the way you wrapped those tubes under the back seat with foil - and secured the wrapping with what look like electrical ties. When I get to that point I'm going to try strips of Dynamat (which I heard about from a fellow Dub-er on Olydubs) on the flat surfaces and your method on the tubes. Right now, it's all open back there so it's really noisy. Thanks for posting the good pics.
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Mike
1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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vwman10
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

The PO ripped out the Y tubes before he shipped the car to me. In doing so he also wrecked the bakalite tubes which run from the heat exchanger to the inside under the back seat. (That's not all he stole before shipping, but that's another topic)

I purchased some bakalite tubes from a Samba member. He had cut down the flanges to make installation easier, as I have read from Samba members that replacing these bakalite tubes is a real bear. Cutting the flange down might make the installation easier, although I have not tried it yet as I am still recovering from surgery which makes it impossible for me to crawl and stoop right now.

Here are the photos of the tubes Fred sent to me, and a link to where you may purchase these tubes.

Have a good Beetle Day.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D111%2D255%2D415%2DF
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vwman10
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Heat Tubes Reply with quote

Sorry for the redundancy. Here's another pic.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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cb77305
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

vwman10 wrote:
I purchased some bakalite tubes from a Samba member. He had cut down the flanges to make installation easier, as I have read from Samba members that replacing these bakalite tubes is a real bear. Cutting the flange down might make the installation easier, although I have not tried it yet as I am still recovering from surgery which makes it impossible for me to crawl and stoop right now. https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D111%2D255%2D415%2DF
I've never seen these items before! Good 'Ol CIP1 - they have all kinds of stuff. I acquired from them the two wiper cranks for my '67 - for not very much money either. Right now I've got my heater tube back seat outlets blocked off, albeit temporarily with balled up newsprint, cardboard, and electrical tape. Gotta figure out a more permanent solution.
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Mike
1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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vwman10
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

I too will be blocking off the back heater portion of the Y Pipe simply for the fact that I will not be carrying rear seat passengers and since I have a Vert. and will not be driving the car in the severe winter months of Chicago.

I think I will block off the back seat arm of the heater pipe with heavy duty alluminum foil. You mentioned you are using cardboard and newspaper right now, but I don't know just how hot that area gets, and you would hate to see those paper products get singed or even perhaps start on fire.

Maybe some other Samba members can add their 2 cents about just how hot those Y pipes get and whether it gets hot enough to prompt a fire in those paper products.
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

vwman10 wrote:
I think I will block off the back seat arm of the heater pipe with heavy duty alluminum foil. You mentioned you are using cardboard and newspaper right now, but I don't know just how hot that area gets, and you would hate to see those paper products get singed or even perhaps start on fire. Maybe some other Samba members can add their 2 cents about just how hot those Y pipes get and whether it gets hot enough to prompt a fire in those paper products.
I was testing the outlet air temp in my '67 by dropping a brewers thermometer down the left-hand windsceen heater outlet. My results are incomplete - I was only driving the VW around the neighborhood and getting about 160F. I think the same test during a good sustained blast down the freeway would be far more useful.
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Mike
1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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tsavman
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

cb77305 wrote:
vwman10 wrote:
I think I will block off the back seat arm of the heater pipe with heavy duty alluminum foil. You mentioned you are using cardboard and newspaper right now, but I don't know just how hot that area gets, and you would hate to see those paper products get singed or even perhaps start on fire. Maybe some other Samba members can add their 2 cents about just how hot those Y pipes get and whether it gets hot enough to prompt a fire in those paper products.
I was testing the outlet air temp in my '67 by dropping a brewers thermometer down the left-hand windsceen heater outlet. My results are incomplete - I was only driving the VW around the neighborhood and getting about 160F. I think the same test during a good sustained blast down the freeway would be far more useful.


Looks like you're having a heavy foot! Shocked
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With leaking flex tubes between the heat exchanger and the body, I've seen temps around 190* at the foot outlets. This is also NOT with heat exchangers that have fins, just a pipe. They can get very hot, although I have never tested the flash point of cardboard.
_________________
*ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*

1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer
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cb77305
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Heater Tubes Reply with quote

tsavman wrote:
Looks like you're having a heavy foot! Shocked
Damn right! I wanna get out there on I-5 and really blow out the cobwebs, now that the engine is performing much better than it was on my drive home from first buying the car. I drove it from Graham to where I live in Burien - both in Washington - and could not get above 3rd gear because the motor refused to rev high enough. Turns out the advance weights in the 009 distributor were glued to the plate by a combination of rust and other gunk. Rather than clean that up I substituted the standard vacuum-advance distributor - and immediately got the power normally expected of a 1500cc or 1600cc stock motor. (Even though it's an "H" case I don't know the displacement for sure.) When I do go for that blast I'll drop the brewers thermometer into the windscreen heater outlet and eyeball it now and then. A brewers thermometer is really nothing but an ordinary meat thermometer with an extra-long probe - about 14 inches.
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Mike
1967 Bug with fully balanced S/P1641
Restored battery pan & package tray
Handy access port through the package tray
Vac-advance distributor, oil temp gauge, voltmeter,
mechanical O/P gauge with 1/4" line.
Completed a 1600 S/P on a rollaway for tests.
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doc hopper
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:49 am    Post subject: Bug Heating/Cooling Reply with quote

My problem is not geared to heating the passenger compartment since the installation of my Dual carbed 2213 cc engine did away with the heat exchangers, etc. My question is one of cooling. The deck lid has the standard set of vents (1970 type) All of the proper tin is in place, the thermostat and shutters are there and working, the rubber seal around the engine keeps the to and bottom air flows separate. This engine has a Berg Type IV shroud and fan and the compression is a sedate 7.0:1. The timing is proper, the jetting is ideal (per sniffer at the exhaust thru all the gears), the engine is fed only 91 octane gas. Yet, it still overheats (based on the Berg temp sensor that turns on the oil light at 220-225 degrees) The only "no-no" that leaps to mind is the fact that I have capped the fresh air outlets on the fan shroud since there is no where to send the air except to expel it at the bottom of the engine. I have read some theories about putting one inch holes into the shroud caps to simulate the proper air flow inside the shroud by bleeding off some of the pressurized air. This freed up air would be cool and presumably would be sucked back into the fan. To the original poster of this discussion I would ask, "is this a viable alternative to the stock fresh air hose hook up for the purpose of engine cooling?"
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tsavman
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first you have to make sure that the intaken air is enough for that big displacement engine. Have you tried driving with stand-off hinges or a tennis ball under the decklid?
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doc hopper
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: Bug Heating/Cooling Reply with quote

I generally drive it with the bottom of the deck lid propped open.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Bug Heating/Cooling Reply with quote

doc hopper wrote:
My problem is not geared to heating the passenger compartment since the installation of my Dual carbed 2213 cc engine did away with the heat exchangers, etc. My question is one of cooling. The deck lid has the standard set of vents (1970 type) All of the proper tin is in place, the thermostat and shutters are there and working, the rubber seal around the engine keeps the to and bottom air flows separate. This engine has a Berg Type IV shroud and fan and the compression is a sedate 7.0:1. The timing is proper, the jetting is ideal (per sniffer at the exhaust thru all the gears), the engine is fed only 91 octane gas. Yet, it still overheats (based on the Berg temp sensor that turns on the oil light at 220-225 degrees) The only "no-no" that leaps to mind is the fact that I have capped the fresh air outlets on the fan shroud since there is no where to send the air except to expel it at the bottom of the engine. I have read some theories about putting one inch holes into the shroud caps to simulate the proper air flow inside the shroud by bleeding off some of the pressurized air. This freed up air would be cool and presumably would be sucked back into the fan. To the original poster of this discussion I would ask, "is this a viable alternative to the stock fresh air hose hook up for the purpose of engine cooling?"


It is my opinion that making holes in the outlets when there are no heat exchangers would have a negative affect, since the escaping air would not be providing any cooling, so I would advise to leave them completely capped. 220-225 is the upper limit of what I would call acceptable oil temperature. Besides the oil temp light, do you have an oil temp gauge? Do you know if the oil temp keeps running away even higher than 220-225? Where is your oil temp light sensor mounted? Have you verified that the oil cooler bypass valve is operating correctly? What IS your timing? Do you have a stock diameter crank pulley? And lastly, I am not familiar with the Type IV fan shroud, does it provide for proper oil cooler air flow (this question posed to other members that can share some insight)? Sorry to answer with so many questions, but there IS any answer lying somewhere!
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1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor

2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6

MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer
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doc hopper
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Engine Cooling Reply with quote

From what I read in one of the Samba threads, the idea of putting one inch holes in the fresh air caps was to simulate the back pressure that would have been realized with heat exchangers in place. The theory was that by totally capping the vents I'm creating an unnatural buffeting within the shroud that disrupts the normal flow of air.
The Berg temp sensor:
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=5_117
It is basically a mercury filled tube that replaces the dipstick and is hooked up to the oil pressure sender. As the mercury climbs, it begins to close a swing arm on the tube, causing the oil pressure light to flicker. When full contact is finally made by the swing arm 220-225 degrees, the circuit is closed and the oil pressure light comes on bright red. The reason I prefer these senders (they're on all 5 of my VW's) is that they are easily tested in a pot of boiling water. At 212 degrees the arm is nearly touching its contact. No electrical hook up needed. Also: temp gauges despite their expense (Berg sender is about $25) have wide variations on actual temperature depending on manufacturer and where the sensor is placed.
Yes, oil bypass operating properly, yes I have a stock size crank pulley. The total advance on the 009 distributor is 32 degrees. (I could go higher with my semi-hemi heads but try to stay conservative)
The Type IV cooling system was standard on the later model air cooled Type IV engines: bigger dog house oil cooler, larger fan.
I can moderate the temperature by cautious driving, watching for the warning light to dim, flicker and then finally turn off. But what's the point of having a dual 48 IDA tire burner in the back end if you can't drive it hard?
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