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cis conversion
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alex77
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: cis conversion Reply with quote

I have just started preparing everything to start the istallation of the cis injection system on my thing

I'm gonna post updates and pictures as i make progress

so the first thing that I started with was on how to put the cis injectors on the intake manifold

so I used some vanagon fuel injectors as the donors

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and I stripped everything on the injector so I can use the outer body

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and then i took the cis injector keepers to the lathe to have the outer diameter match the inside diameter of the injector body

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and press the keepers in

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and now the final result

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

tomorrow i'm gonna try them on the intake manifold
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Chris in Santa Cruz, CA
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if you've seen the movie "Contact" or not but in this film a rich guy makes a machine that creates worm holes to travel through time and space. When a religious nut case sabotages it the rich guy reveals that he made a second machine at the same time as he made the first one. He states that if you have to make one then you might as well make two.

So with all that said, why don't you make and source two of everything. People like me might want to buy the second kit.

Nice on the injector btw.
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alex77
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it works fine i will make a second one for my beetle and make some to sell
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alex77
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's some pics of the injectors on the manifold

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a great idea Alex.
Did you machine a groove for the CIS O-rings in the hollowed out L-Jet parts?

It seems to me that the hole in the engine compartment "floor" on fuel injected Beetles is wider than on carburetor models. What I found in my conversion was that because of this, the injectors barely cleared the rubber seal between the engine compartment floor and the engine. The solution was to re weld the injector bungs at a steeper angle so that the tips stayed in the same place, but the hose ends were higher.

Yours looks like a good solution; I hope it works out.

Keep at it, Mondshine
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alex77
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the cis injector bungs or keepers and took them to the lathe to remove the tread and match the outside diameter so i could press them in the inside of the L-jet injector
in the third picture you can see the injector bung and in the fourth picture you can see it already in the injector

mondshine wrote:
That was a great idea Alex.
Did you machine a groove for the CIS O-rings in the hollowed out L-Jet parts?

It seems to me that the hole in the engine compartment "floor" on fuel injected Beetles is wider than on carburetor models. What I found in my conversion was that because of this, the injectors barely cleared the rubber seal between the engine compartment floor and the engine. The solution was to re weld the injector bungs at a steeper angle so that the tips stayed in the same place, but the hose ends were higher.

Yours looks like a good solution; I hope it works out.

Keep at it, Mondshine


I tought about that but as i have seen on previous postings
and it seems that the L-jet injector would not clear the engine compartment floor but as you can see in the pictures I have posted
the cis injector on the Ljet injector body its a little bit shorter and if it would not clear i can shorten the injector bungs so the injector would sit in deeper
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alex77
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey mondshine

how many spacers did you use on the intake manifold
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now there are none; just a standard manifold gasket.
If I remember correctly, I tried the type 3 style spacers (1 on each side) to raise the injectors above the rubber seal, but it wasn't enough.
Once the angle of the bungs was changed, it fit together nicely as you see it in the other post.
I also think you might run into clearance problems with the spark plugs if you go too wild with the spacers.
The reason I mentioned it at all was that you won't really know how much clearance you have until the engine is in place.

Somewhere recently, I saw a photo where part of the floor of an engine compartment was cut away and replaced with pieces of rubber. That's the sort of thing I'd like to see you avoid.

One more suggestion would be to get the manifold gasket surfaces on those runners as clean and flat as you can make it. I used 400 grit wet sanding paper on a piece of glass.
You don't want vacuum leaks with CIS.

On the shape of the hole in the engine compartment floor, I'd be curious to know how the shapes compare between a German post '75 fuel injected Beetle versus a late Mexican fuel injected Beetle.

Keep up the good work, Mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i want to avoid cutting the engine compartment floor thats why if it would not clear i can push the injector bungs deeper or machine the tip of the injector body so it would seat .25 of an inch deeper once i have it all ready i'm gonna start test fitting everything and see wha can be done to avoid cutting the floor

i ask about the spacers because the end castings dont lineup whit the center piece
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get better alignment with the spacers, then by all means use them.
I think there were also metal bushings between the studs and the spacers to prevent the spacers from being crushed when the manifold nuts are torqued.
I just wanted to let you know that in my Thing, the angle that the injectors enter the runners made the difference, and that's the hardest thing to change.
That's why I was curious about the Mexican FI beetles intake runners and the size of the opening in the engine compartment floor versus German FI Beetles.
When I did the conversion, I tried to keep the business end of the injectors in the same spot as they were originally. It looks like you've done that; I hope they fit.
Good luck, Mondshine
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alex77
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i did somome research on the mexibeetle intake and runners and the might work because the runners have the injectors ant a different angle but the center piece doesnt have the inlet for the cold start valve and it has a bigger opening for the auxiliary air valve but it could be worked out

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=519841

i might buy inw of those for my beetle conversion later on
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alex77
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mondshine

do you sstill have the intake runners that you got in the miller fi kit
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex-
The runners I am using right now are the original steel runners (from a FI Beetle) which Gary Miller modified for CIS. These are the runners that I sent back to him to alter the angle of the CIS bungs to raise the backside of the injectors.

I also have lying around another pair of runners (also from Miller) which are modified from standard dual port units.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

To me, the injector angle looks like about 45*, but I don't know how the angle compares to that on the steel runners I'm using.

These runners were supposed to flow better than the original Beetle steel pieces; I just never got around to trying them.

Mondshine
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alex77
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you read my mind

I was gonna ask about the injector angles on the intake runers on the ones that you have in the car and on the ones that you have lying around
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex-
I went out there and tried to compare the angles, but I see that it would be impossible to know "for sure" without removing the steel runner from the engine (which I'd rather not do).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

You can see here that the injectors barely clear the rubber seal, and this is with the increased angle runners.

You can give the aluminum runners a shot if you like, but I believe Miller made them with the same injector angle as stock.
Remember that Miller built these systems for sand rails and rock crawlers, and I think I was the first person to install it in a "bodied" car.
If you can weld, you might be able to duplicate what Miller did, but make those aluminum "wedges" more like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(This operation is a lot easier in Photoshop than in real life.)

Those injector bungs look like they could be turned on a lathe from pipe fittings and threaded into a chunk of aluminum welded to the runners just like Miller did; or grind down the steel runners for a similar effect.

Another detail on the aluminum runners is that the ends don't quite match up with the stock FI plenum, and I believe some flex hose is needed there. Like I said, I never got around to trying these.

I have read that an intake manifold for a Weber progressive carburetor is a perfect match for the standard Rabbit progressive throttle body (if you are willing to dick around with linkage, etc., etc.

Hope this helps, Mondshine
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alex77
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if the injector would not clear i can push them .25 ind in deeper
so the tip on the injector would be flush in the intake runner you can see in the pic that the tip sits back .25 inch

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and if the L-jet injector rubs on the engine floor i can remove .25 of an inch of the top so the would end up just above the retainers

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

i really dont mind cutting a loop on the compartment seal i just dont want to cut the floor

once i have that figured out im gonna replace the plastic injector bungs for the later style that are made of bronze
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so i went to the local junk yard and got a few parts and got what i'm gonna use as a surge tank.
and went to the local auto parts and got the filter that goes before the fuel pump

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

so the fuel pump pre filter, fuel pump, and pressure accumulator are gonna go mounted above the transaxle lets hope the fuel pump is up to it if not i'll just have to move it to the front just under the tank
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