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BWD Samba Mailman
Joined: August 23, 2002 Posts: 2154 Location: In bed.
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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bugninva wrote: |
scrapmetalvw wrote: |
Yeah great idea till they fail and close up and over heat your motor. . |
parrots say this all the time... Poly, I gotta ask ya, how many times have you had an engine overheat due to a failed thermostat? Hell, how many times have you heard of it happening? Stop spreading "urban legends" |
We can certainly thank John Muir for telling folks to get rid of the thermostat and cooling flaps, all those years ago! _________________ BWD
JHC
member #2850
1966 Beetle
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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We can certainly thank John Muir for telling folks to get rid of the thermostat and cooling flaps, all those years ago! |
That's a misquote. I will not have you senselessly bash a great author and engineer so:
There ia a procedure on how to service the thermostat in chapter 10 and...
Page 430 of the Idiot book, ahem,
"Check the thermostat on upright engines to make sure it is opening the air flap behind the generator as it should. Some folks like to remove the thermostat altogether so that the flap is always full open. Don't. In the winter your engine will never fully heat up and raw gas will blow down past the pistons and rings, diluting the oil."
I suggest that every Air cooled owner read this book cover to cover. I have yet to see one thing in that book that will hurt our beloved cars. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet
Last edited by Frankie Pintado on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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BWD wrote: |
bugninva wrote: |
scrapmetalvw wrote: |
Yeah great idea till they fail and close up and over heat your motor. . |
parrots say this all the time... Poly, I gotta ask ya, how many times have you had an engine overheat due to a failed thermostat? Hell, how many times have you heard of it happening? Stop spreading "urban legends" |
We can certainly thank John Muir for telling folks to get rid of the thermostat and cooling flaps, all those years ago! |
so, you are saying the Muir book shouldn't be followed like a religion?
I can feel the stinkfeet lining up already.... _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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I'm saying read the book before blaming some condition on it. And that I follow logical thought processes as a religion, and I do not burn books I've never read. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Frankie Pintado wrote: |
I'm saying read the book before blaming some condition on it. And that I follow logical thought processes as a religion, and I do not burn books I've never read. |
So, you are saying that Muir didn't advocate pulling the thermostat and flaps? _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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From the Muir book.
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Get down on your hands and knees and look under the right side of the engine. See the curved piece of sheet metal between the engine case and the cylinder head? OK, above this sheet metal you'll see a little brass accordion like gizmo attached to the engine case. That's the engine air thermostat-or bellows. If it's fully expanded and warped that's the problem. When stuck in this position, the thermostat
closes off the air flaps in the fan housing cutting off the supply of cooling air to the engine. |
WRONG _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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What page? _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
So, you are saying that Muir didn't advocate pulling the thermostat and flaps? |
Read the above quote with page number. If you interpret the word "Don't" as advocating it, then this is gonna be a short discussion. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Frankie Pintado wrote: |
What page? |
Page 84 Chapter 10 of the 1988 printing.
I need to get my hands on an early edition. _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thank You, and while that is technically incorrect, the procedure is absolutely correct and will fix the car. Now let's put that in context with the next paragraph:
"To remedy this problem..." and he gives a great procedure to replace the thermostat. If anything this technicality places More emphasis on how important it is. By his incorrect logic, you absolutely should not be driving with an expanded thermostat or you will overheat. While in principle, this is wrong, following this belief could only make your car run healthier. For all I know he did it on purpose.
So there are two procedures on how to replace it, and a fictional horror story to get Harry Homeowner off his butt to do it. Still nowhere does it tell you to remove it and not replace it.
He repeats throughout the book how important it is to replace every part of the cooling system exactly as it was (on doghouse engines). _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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BWD Samba Mailman
Joined: August 23, 2002 Posts: 2154 Location: In bed.
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Frankie Pintado wrote: |
Quote: |
We can certainly thank John Muir for telling folks to get rid of the thermostat and cooling flaps, all those years ago! |
That's a misquote. I will not have you senselessly bash a great author and engineer so:
There ia a procedure on how to service the thermostat in chapter 10 and...
Page 430 of the Idiot book, ahem,
"Check the thermostat on upright engines to make sure it is opening the air flap behind the generator as it should. Some folks like to remove the thermostat altogether so that the flap is always full open. Don't. In the winter your engine will never fully heat up and raw gas will blow down past the pistons and rings, diluting the oil."
I suggest that every Air cooled owner read this book cover to cover. I have yet to see one thing in that book that will hurt our beloved cars. |
"(The air control ring in the fan housing with its associated equipment) is maybe a good system. I take them all completely out and recommend this practice. If it fouls up, it can ruin an engine very shortly through overheating. The same thing goes for the new type of cooling air control in the 1965 and on engines which have flaps inside the fan housing."
John Muir, page 159 January 1971 ed.
I love the idiot book, I have two copies(1/1971 + 9/1974 editions) it helped me tons and makes me laugh!
You just need to take some of it with a grain of salt! _________________ BWD
JHC
member #2850
1966 Beetle
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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damn... Frankie... you complained and assumed he hadn't read the book, maybe you are not familiar with the fact that the idiot guide was revised over the years? _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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I read the Muir in my bathroom.
I have read it several times. Mostly for entertainment.
Only thing Muir has going for its, that it is written at a 4th grade level. Anyone can understand what is being written.
But, it is not a bible. _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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bugninva wrote: |
damn... Frankie... you complained and assumed he hadn't read the book, maybe you are not familiar with the fact that the idiot guide was revised over the years? |
It was inflammatory. I want you all to know I offered my apologies. I am not totally remorseful however. This thread was not a total waste.
I have a '76 and '01 edition. There aren't too many differences, little things (one was discovered on this thread), until you get to the end of the old book and the new one keeps going. If the early editions are worse I'd still like to hear about it. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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BWD Samba Mailman
Joined: August 23, 2002 Posts: 2154 Location: In bed.
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Frankie Pintado wrote: |
bugninva wrote: |
damn... Frankie... you complained and assumed he hadn't read the book, maybe you are not familiar with the fact that the idiot guide was revised over the years? |
It was inflammatory. I want you all to know I offered my apologies. I am not totally remorseful however. This thread was not a total waste.
I have a '76 and '01 edition. There aren't too many differences, little things (one was discovered on this thread), until you get to the end of the old book and the new one keeps going. If the early editions are worse I'd still like to hear about it. |
How was it inflammatory? I just said what he said! Get a grip junior! _________________ BWD
JHC
member #2850
1966 Beetle
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Frankie Pintado Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2008 Posts: 372 Location: Lake of the Woods, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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BWD wrote: |
Frankie Pintado wrote: |
bugninva wrote: |
damn... Frankie... you complained and assumed he hadn't read the book, maybe you are not familiar with the fact that the idiot guide was revised over the years? |
It was inflammatory. I want you all to know I offered my apologies. I am not totally remorseful however. This thread was not a total waste.
I have a '76 and '01 edition. There aren't too many differences, little things (one was discovered on this thread), until you get to the end of the old book and the new one keeps going. If the early editions are worse I'd still like to hear about it. |
How was it inflammatory? I just said what he said! Get a grip junior! |
I meant that what I said was inflammatory. I was starting s#!t. I'm Sorry. Now I've got everyone on the defense. _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, 1985 Vanagon GL, 1989 Cabriolet |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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It seems like every "flaps" thread goes in this direction. |
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Antonio Trejo wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Oh and just to be clear, i'm talking about the original OE thermostat, not the crappy Mexican one. |
Glenn: Do you mean the "crappy Brazilian one"? from 1973 to 1995 Volkswagen of Mexico installed only thermostats made in Germany, the "new style" thermostats for sale in shops like Cip1 are made in Brazil. |
Antonio, I have made that mistake at one time, too. Here's why:
http://www.vw-resource.com/vanes_thermostat.html#mexican
I've also seen it in a few other places on the web that list it as "Mexican", not that the internet is always right. _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
MAHLE Service Solutions
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Antonio Trejo VW Parts Dealer
Joined: December 17, 2003 Posts: 937 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Paul, I have seen that wrong information in many on-line shops before. In fact that "new style" thermostat is not available in Mexico: Volkswagen of Mexico never made it, and the mexican aftermarket parts sellers do not know anything about. May be "mexican made" than "brazilian made" is just a strategy sale? _________________ Parts VW
"From Volkswagen of Mexico factory..."
Genuine VW Sedan parts
Genuine VW Ultima Edition parts
Genuine VW Type 2 watercooled parts |
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rlutterb Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2006 Posts: 1391 Location: Carrollton Ohio
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.
There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.
That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read. _________________ 1973 Super Beetle
1978 Ford F-250
2020 GMC Sierra |
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