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Do I need cooling flaps
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Antonio Trejo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.

There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.

That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read.


My Sedan 1994 keep the same factory engine: 168,590 kms. / 104,756 miles
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bugninva
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.

.


every vw I've owned or worked on that didn't have the thermostat had the "shitty heat" that vw's are known for.... without the thermostat, in my mildish climate I can confirm that the heat barely exists ..... and my guages show that the head and oil temperatures don't reach operating temperature for quite some time, if at all, in the winter.... I'll take the thermostat and flaps on mine.... hot heat in about a mile or two....
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ruckman101
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.

There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.

That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read.


I certainly hope to. Over 50k now on my rebuild, last line-bore for the case, in a bus, so probably not 100k, but will run it until it fails. My bus is a daily driver/camper at this point, not a weekend fun runner.


neal
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months .

You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.

Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.

There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.

That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read.


I have a 1971 VW, that has been in my family since 1979. Prior to that it belonged to a friend, and I did the service work. I even did the pre-delivery on the car at the dealer when it was new. The car has in excess of 200K miles. About every 100K miles, the engine gets an overhaul. It does have the thermostat in it.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'71 T3 with original, rebuilt motor, always in the family, about 250K miles... went about 10 years without flaps. I replaced them and even in SoCal I can feel that the motor warms up/smooths out faster, and I get good heat in about two minutes, expecially from the defroster.
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rlutterb
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months .

You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.

Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically.


My toasty feet must be my imagination. I must have missed it when you got into my car and took it for a drive and checked the temp.
The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't "Properly maintained" means keeping the flaps installed?
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rlutterb
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not in my case I guess.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
Bruce wrote:
rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months .

You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.

Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically.

The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you
Compared to a modern Toyota or Honda, your car's heat output is trivial at best. They didn't get the universal reputation of crappy heat output back in the day when they were new for nothing.

rlutterb wrote:
My toasty feet must be my imagination.

Most people I know want the rest of themselves to be warm, not just their feet.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.

Look, it's your engine. Run it with a thermostat or without, your call. Just disable it and leave it sitting there for the poor chump you eventually sell the car to, so he doesn't have to spend time and money rounding up the missing parts. Please.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coad wrote:
The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.

.

Years ago, with wintertime consisting of heavy coat and an ice scraper to scrape the windshield when I'd breath, I made one addition to the cooling system(which also dictates the heating system, even in waterpumpers) and that was the thermostat.... instant results... from nearly no heat, to whoa look the hell out it's hot in here... that's also when I stopped having issues with head cracks, poor cold weather performance, and my CHT guage immediately showed some signs of life without running the piss out of the car.... overcooled cars are just as bad as overheating cars, only most don't realize it...
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bugnut68
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been pointed out, the flaps and thermostat are vital pieces for maximizing the life of the engine, especially crucial when a car is driven daily or at least very regularly. For me, my 1776 had the flaps wired open inside my factory doghouse shroud, but no thermostat. In all honesty, it took me somewhere in the neighborhood of seven years to accrue the 5,000 miles that are on that engine before I sold it to a buddy that's installed it in his baja, so daily driving is, in some respect, relative.
I'm currently building a 2017 that will be an occasional street driver and weekend bracket racer at the local 1/8 mile strip. I will likely run the same set up with that engine's cooling system, though I will have to modify the 36hp Scat shroud to accept the flaps.
For me, at least, my cars are very occasional seasonal play things and I fully accept that I won't get the full life out of the engines if not built to the factory full specs.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coad wrote:
The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.

Look, it's your engine. Run it with a thermostat or without, your call. Just disable it and leave it sitting there for the poor chump you eventually sell the car to, so he doesn't have to spend time and money rounding up the missing parts. Please.


It is very noticeable, both in the length of time it takes to get to temp, and in the volume of warm air entering the cabin. With the flaps closed, as they would be when it's cold out, more of the fan output is concentrated on the heater. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rlutterb wrote:
Bruce wrote:
rlutterb wrote:
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months .

You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.

Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically.


My toasty feet must be my imagination. I must have missed it when you got into my car and took it for a drive and checked the temp.
The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you


Careful now, you don't want to get an attitude and act like an "ass" that you deem others to be.

BTW, 115,XXX miles on my '75 and running strong. My '73 had 139,XXX before the engine rebuild and both cars had the flaps and thermostat.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antonio Trejo wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This year I spent $275 USD and many hours to install back the complete system (genuine VW - NOS parts) in my Sedan. I got parts from Germany, US, Canada and Mexico... I did not spent that time and money for nothing.
You need that stuff.


If you bought them so you could have good cabin heat, then ok. If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them so you could have good cabin heat, then ok. If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.


agreed... having and huge assembly of parts bolted together that has tolerances that are set based on an operating temperature range, could *never* benefit from the device that keeps it in that operating range... how silly...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW... you don't have to spend a small fortune for a complete set.

$80 is all you need to spend.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1035965
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should all take the thermostats out of our watercooled cars, too. That way our engines can be cold, we can be cold, and we'll all get horrible gas mileage...

Operating temperature is within a specified range, not lower, not higher. The thermostat controls BOTH.
I think with the amount of time and effort VW put into designing, testing, manufacturing, redesigning, re-testing, and re-manufacturing the cooling system probably means it's better to leave it in the car. I'm telling you I have run with and without, the car runs better with. My cylinder head temp guage also told me that driving on the expressway at 75 mph for 25-30 minute resulted in temps 75-100 degrees HIGHER than WITH the flaps. Those flaps also direct air at critical parts of the cylinder heads, WHERE IT'S NEEDED!!! Do what you want, I'm just giving the facts. If you decide to get rid of them, save the whole works including the thermostat and give them to someone who wants them, the thermostats are getting harder to come by, (not hard, just harder).
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