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Antonio Trejo VW Parts Dealer
Joined: December 17, 2003 Posts: 937 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.
There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.
That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read. |
My Sedan 1994 keep the same factory engine: 168,590 kms. / 104,756 miles _________________ Parts VW
"From Volkswagen of Mexico factory..."
Genuine VW Sedan parts
Genuine VW Ultima Edition parts
Genuine VW Type 2 watercooled parts |
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.
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every vw I've owned or worked on that didn't have the thermostat had the "shitty heat" that vw's are known for.... without the thermostat, in my mildish climate I can confirm that the heat barely exists ..... and my guages show that the head and oil temperatures don't reach operating temperature for quite some time, if at all, in the winter.... I'll take the thermostat and flaps on mine.... hot heat in about a mile or two.... _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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ruckman101 Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2004 Posts: 961 Location: Portland "Little Beirut", OR
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.
There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.
That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read. |
I certainly hope to. Over 50k now on my rebuild, last line-bore for the case, in a bus, so probably not 100k, but will run it until it fails. My bus is a daily driver/camper at this point, not a weekend fun runner.
neal _________________ Where are we going, and why am I in this hand-basket? |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months . |
You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.
Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months.
There is no doubt that VW engineers kept the same basic engine design for all those years because IT WORKS.
I'm sure the flaps in proper working order do make the engine last longer.......but lets be honest...who of us will at this point keep the same VW engine in the same car for 100,000+ miles these days.
Glenn is a rare example of that.
That all said.......I think the flap threads are always a fun read. |
I have a 1971 VW, that has been in my family since 1979. Prior to that it belonged to a friend, and I did the service work. I even did the pre-delivery on the car at the dealer when it was new. The car has in excess of 200K miles. About every 100K miles, the engine gets an overhaul. It does have the thermostat in it. _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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'71 T3 with original, rebuilt motor, always in the family, about 250K miles... went about 10 years without flaps. I replaced them and even in SoCal I can feel that the motor warms up/smooths out faster, and I get good heat in about two minutes, expecially from the defroster. |
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rlutterb Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2006 Posts: 1391 Location: Carrollton Ohio
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Bruce wrote: |
rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months . |
You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.
Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically. |
My toasty feet must be my imagination. I must have missed it when you got into my car and took it for a drive and checked the temp.
The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you _________________ 1973 Super Beetle
1978 Ford F-250
2020 GMC Sierra |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Doesn't "Properly maintained" means keeping the flaps installed? |
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rlutterb Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2006 Posts: 1391 Location: Carrollton Ohio
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: |
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not in my case I guess. _________________ 1973 Super Beetle
1978 Ford F-250
2020 GMC Sierra |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:51 am Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
Bruce wrote: |
rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months . |
You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.
Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically. |
The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you |
Compared to a modern Toyota or Honda, your car's heat output is trivial at best. They didn't get the universal reputation of crappy heat output back in the day when they were new for nothing.
rlutterb wrote: |
My toasty feet must be my imagination. |
Most people I know want the rest of themselves to be warm, not just their feet. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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coad Samba Scapegoat
Joined: September 12, 2002 Posts: 7552
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.
Look, it's your engine. Run it with a thermostat or without, your call. Just disable it and leave it sitting there for the poor chump you eventually sell the car to, so he doesn't have to spend time and money rounding up the missing parts. Please. |
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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coad wrote: |
The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.
. |
Years ago, with wintertime consisting of heavy coat and an ice scraper to scrape the windshield when I'd breath, I made one addition to the cooling system(which also dictates the heating system, even in waterpumpers) and that was the thermostat.... instant results... from nearly no heat, to whoa look the hell out it's hot in here... that's also when I stopped having issues with head cracks, poor cold weather performance, and my CHT guage immediately showed some signs of life without running the piss out of the car.... overcooled cars are just as bad as overheating cars, only most don't realize it... _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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bugnut68 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003 Posts: 4180 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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As has been pointed out, the flaps and thermostat are vital pieces for maximizing the life of the engine, especially crucial when a car is driven daily or at least very regularly. For me, my 1776 had the flaps wired open inside my factory doghouse shroud, but no thermostat. In all honesty, it took me somewhere in the neighborhood of seven years to accrue the 5,000 miles that are on that engine before I sold it to a buddy that's installed it in his baja, so daily driving is, in some respect, relative.
I'm currently building a 2017 that will be an occasional street driver and weekend bracket racer at the local 1/8 mile strip. I will likely run the same set up with that engine's cooling system, though I will have to modify the 36hp Scat shroud to accept the flaps.
For me, at least, my cars are very occasional seasonal play things and I fully accept that I won't get the full life out of the engines if not built to the factory full specs. |
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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coad wrote: |
The thermostat's not there because of the heater, it's there for the health of the engine. A correctly installed and operating thermostat might get heat flowing a little quicker, maybe, but you would probably never notice it.
Look, it's your engine. Run it with a thermostat or without, your call. Just disable it and leave it sitting there for the poor chump you eventually sell the car to, so he doesn't have to spend time and money rounding up the missing parts. Please. |
It is very noticeable, both in the length of time it takes to get to temp, and in the volume of warm air entering the cabin. With the flaps closed, as they would be when it's cold out, more of the fan output is concentrated on the heater. _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer |
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19super73 Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007 Posts: 4351 Location: Cité Soleil
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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rlutterb wrote: |
Bruce wrote: |
rlutterb wrote: |
I don't have flaps and my heat blows me out in the winter months . |
You're in denial. Every other VW owner knows how crappy the heat is. Even every person that doesn't drive a VW knows how crappy the heat is.
Put in the thermostat and flaps, the heat output improves dramatically. |
My toasty feet must be my imagination. I must have missed it when you got into my car and took it for a drive and checked the temp.
The heat is only poor if the system has the typical leaks from lack of maintenance. 'EVERYBODY KNOWS HOW CRAPPY THE HEAT IS' would be you believing what you hear. Properly maintained, the heat is just fine.
Many Many Samba'ists will disagree with you |
Careful now, you don't want to get an attitude and act like an "ass" that you deem others to be.
BTW, 115,XXX miles on my '75 and running strong. My '73 had 139,XXX before the engine rebuild and both cars had the flaps and thermostat. _________________ 1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon |
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vwsteve Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2004 Posts: 1047 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Antonio Trejo wrote: |
This year I spent $275 USD and many hours to install back the complete system (genuine VW - NOS parts) in my Sedan. I got parts from Germany, US, Canada and Mexico... I did not spent that time and money for nothing.
You need that stuff. |
If you bought them so you could have good cabin heat, then ok. If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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vwsteve wrote: |
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment. |
You're entitled to your opinion. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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bugninva Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004 Posts: 8858 Location: sound it out.
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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vwsteve wrote: |
If you bought them so you could have good cabin heat, then ok. If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment. |
agreed... having and huge assembly of parts bolted together that has tolerances that are set based on an operating temperature range, could *never* benefit from the device that keeps it in that operating range... how silly... _________________
[email protected] wrote: |
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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We should all take the thermostats out of our watercooled cars, too. That way our engines can be cold, we can be cold, and we'll all get horrible gas mileage...
Operating temperature is within a specified range, not lower, not higher. The thermostat controls BOTH.
I think with the amount of time and effort VW put into designing, testing, manufacturing, redesigning, re-testing, and re-manufacturing the cooling system probably means it's better to leave it in the car. I'm telling you I have run with and without, the car runs better with. My cylinder head temp guage also told me that driving on the expressway at 75 mph for 25-30 minute resulted in temps 75-100 degrees HIGHER than WITH the flaps. Those flaps also direct air at critical parts of the cylinder heads, WHERE IT'S NEEDED!!! Do what you want, I'm just giving the facts. If you decide to get rid of them, save the whole works including the thermostat and give them to someone who wants them, the thermostats are getting harder to come by, (not hard, just harder). _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer |
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