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Do I need cooling flaps
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Antonio Trejo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

I bought them because I want to install back the complete system in my Sedan 94 The stupid mechanic team at the VW dealership take off the complete system from my Sedan 6 months ago. My Sedan keep the same factory engine: 168,590 kms. / 104,756 miles and runs perfect.

Glenn wrote:
BTW... you don't have to spend a small fortune for a complete set.
$80 is all you need to spend.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1035965

$80 is a good price for used parts, but I got NOS parts only. I spent $275 because I got the parts FedEx shipped from Germany, Canada and US to Mexico City.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antonio Trejo wrote:
$80 is a good price for used parts, but I got NOS parts only. I spent $275 because I got the parts FedEx shipped from Germany, Canada and US to Mexico City.

The problem with NOS parts is once you use then they are used parts.

I have used flaps and thermostat in my new engine and they work just find. I'm sure my wife can find something to spend the saved $200 on.
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Antonio Trejo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Antonio Trejo wrote:
$80 is a good price for used parts, but I got NOS parts only. I spent $275 because I got the parts FedEx shipped from Germany, Canada and US to Mexico City.

The problem with NOS parts is once you use then they are used parts.

I have used flaps and thermostat in my new engine and they work just find. I'm sure my wife can find something to spend the saved $200 on.


I forgot to write the VW dealership paid the bill: parts, shipping cost and they install back the system for free. And I will get a nice discount in my next 6 month - service. The cost of stupidity.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antonio Trejo wrote:

I forgot to write the VW dealership paid the bill: parts, shipping cost and they install back the system for free. And I will get a nice discount in my next 6 month - service. The cost of stupidity.

Now that's good service!
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scrapmetalvw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.


So are you even tho there is no prof. The only way we could prove it one way or the other is if we took two new rebuilt engines, built both to speck and drove both the same for 100,000 miles, tore um down and remeasured all the appropriate tolerances.
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scrapmetalvw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugnut68 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the flaps and thermostat are vital pieces for maximizing the life of the engine, especially crucial when a car is driven daily or at least very regularly. For me, my 1776 had the flaps wired open inside my factory doghouse shroud, but no thermostat. In all honesty, it took me somewhere in the neighborhood of seven years to accrue the 5,000 miles that are on that engine before I sold it to a buddy that's installed it in his baja, so daily driving is, in some respect, relative.
I'm currently building a 2017 that will be an occasional street driver and weekend bracket racer at the local 1/8 mile strip. I will likely run the same set up with that engine's cooling system, though I will have to modify the 36hp Scat shroud to accept the flaps.
For me, at least, my cars are very occasional seasonal play things and I fully accept that I won't get the full life out of the engines if not built to the factory full specs.


1776 and 2017 and factory specs do not go together.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.


So are you even tho there is no prof. The only way we could prove it one way or the other is if we took two new rebuilt engines, built both to speck and drove both the same for 100,000 miles, tore um down and remeasured all the appropriate tolerances.

Your right... so tell me when you've done that. In the mean time i'll just trust the VW engineers.. .who were pretty smart people.

Oh... take a few short trips during the colder weather and then lift the cap on the oil fill. That milky brown foam under the cap is from the engine not warming up and condensation inside mixing with the oil.

That's from not having flaps and a thermostat. While you might like a milkshake, your engine does not.
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scrapmetalvw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.


So are you even tho there is no prof. The only way we could prove it one way or the other is if we took two new rebuilt engines, built both to speck and drove both the same for 100,000 miles, tore um down and remeasured all the appropriate tolerances.

Your right... so tell me when you've done that. In the mean time i'll just trust the VW engineers.. .who were pretty smart people.

Oh... take a few short trips during the colder weather and then lift the cap on the oil fill. That milky brown foam under the cap is from the engine not warming up and condensation inside mixing with the oil.

That's from not having flaps and a thermostat. While you might like a milkshake, your engine does not.


I guess you fail to see my point, or are to fixated on being right.... Any way have fun with your cooling flaps. Let me know when you have did the experiment and proved your side of the argument.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is a 1914, it runs flaps now. I'm pretty sure Glenn's engine makes twice the amount of power as mine, his runs flaps, too.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.


So are you even tho there is no prof. The only way we could prove it one way or the other is if we took two new rebuilt engines, built both to speck and drove both the same for 100,000 miles, tore um down and remeasured all the appropriate tolerances.

Your right... so tell me when you've done that. In the mean time i'll just trust the VW engineers.. .who were pretty smart people.

Oh... take a few short trips during the colder weather and then lift the cap on the oil fill. That milky brown foam under the cap is from the engine not warming up and condensation inside mixing with the oil.

That's from not having flaps and a thermostat. While you might like a milkshake, your engine does not.


I guess you fail to see my point, or are to fixated on being right.... Any way have fun with your cooling flaps. Let me know when you have did the experiment and proved your side of the argument.

I guess you failed to read what I wrote, so i'll make it easy for you.

I'm advocating do keep something that engineers designed it. You're saying you're smarter than the engineers, so the burden of proof is on you.

Until then, i'll do the conservative thing and go with the smart people.
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scrapmetalvw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
scrapmetalvw wrote:
Glenn wrote:
vwsteve wrote:
If you bought them to make your engine last longer, then it was a poor investment.

You're entitled to your opinion.


So are you even tho there is no prof. The only way we could prove it one way or the other is if we took two new rebuilt engines, built both to speck and drove both the same for 100,000 miles, tore um down and remeasured all the appropriate tolerances.

Your right... so tell me when you've done that. In the mean time i'll just trust the VW engineers.. .who were pretty smart people.

Oh... take a few short trips during the colder weather and then lift the cap on the oil fill. That milky brown foam under the cap is from the engine not warming up and condensation inside mixing with the oil.

That's from not having flaps and a thermostat. While you might like a milkshake, your engine does not.


I guess you fail to see my point, or are to fixated on being right.... Any way have fun with your cooling flaps. Let me know when you have did the experiment and proved your side of the argument.

I guess you failed to read what I wrote, so i'll make it easy for you.


NO smart ass I read what you wrote, I ran my 1915 and and 1835 with out them and Never had that issue, even ran my 1600 with out them and my oil cap was clear. You don't have to make things easy for me, as I am not like most of the people you are used to hanging out with.

You guys talk about how it shortens the life of the motor.... Prove it, if you can't your argument holds no weight and then just becomes a opinion. Glenn, it's logic let it in.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrapmetalvw wrote:

You guys talk about how it shortens the life of the motor.... Prove it, if you can't your argument holds no weight and then just becomes a opinion. Glenn, it's logic let it in.


unfortunately, you are as passionate about being "right" as you claim others are, or you'd never bother with "prove it"... It was engineered into the cooling system by the manufacturer that determined it was necessary... therefore, Glenn is 100% correct in stating that the "burden of proof" that you seek is indeed on you... That is, if you wish to be "right"... if the cooling system isn't needed, why use any of it? hell chuch the thermostat in every vehicle you own... chuck the thermostat in your house right out the window... they all serve the *same* purpose... get rid of the thermostats in your oven, stove, refrigerator, they too, all serve the *same* purpose... the purpose you claim in not necessary... Wink
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrapmetalvw wrote:
You guys talk about how it shortens the life of the motor.... Prove it, if you can't your argument holds no weight and then just becomes a opinion. Glenn, it's logic let it in.


I guess you missed this part of what I wrote since you didn't quote it.
Glenn wrote:
I'm advocating do keep something that engineers designed it. You're saying you're smarter than the engineers, so the burden of proof is on you.

Until then, i'll do the conservative thing and go with the smart people.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Windisch wrote:
We should all take the thermostats out of our watercooled cars, too. That way our engines can be cold, we can be cold, and we'll all get horrible gas mileage...

Operating temperature is within a specified range, not lower, not higher. The thermostat controls BOTH.
I think with the amount of time and effort VW put into designing, testing, manufacturing, redesigning, re-testing, and re-manufacturing the cooling system probably means it's better to leave it in the car. I'm telling you I have run with and without, the car runs better with. My cylinder head temp guage also told me that driving on the expressway at 75 mph for 25-30 minute resulted in temps 75-100 degrees HIGHER than WITH the flaps. Those flaps also direct air at critical parts of the cylinder heads, WHERE IT'S NEEDED!!! Do what you want, I'm just giving the facts. If you decide to get rid of them, save the whole works including the thermostat and give them to someone who wants them, the thermostats are getting harder to come by, (not hard, just harder).


Everyone thinks removing the flaps will make the engine run cooler, but it doesn't always work that way. Removing them will either make the engine run too cool at lower speeds, or too hot at higher speeds. I can't make you do anything, and if what you do seems to be OK for you, then I can't argue it, but I'm not going to advocate removal of said system when I have run it both ways and the numbers tell me to leave the system in.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I didn't mean to start an argument. I agree it is best to have the thermostat, but it aint (in my opinion) worth $275. I have it functioning in my daily winter driver, but if I didn't, I would not pay $275 for it, $80 yes. BTW, I still get the milkshake shit with the thermostat, it would probably be worse without it though. Even if it does shorten the life of the engine, I could damn near rebuild it for $275.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was the bill:
- 1 x Thermostat (NOS) shipped from California, US to Mexico City by USPS....$86 (Thanks, SGKent!)
- 1 x Thermostat rod and clip (NEW) shipped from the US to Mexico City by USPS - eVWparts................$18
- 1 x Thermostat brack (NOS) shipped shipped from the US to Mexico City by FedEx..................$37
- 1 x Thermostat linkage with hardware and return spring shipped from Canada to Mexico City............$0.0 (Free!, thanks Bruce!)*
- 1 x Left and right cooling shutters (NOS) shipped from Germany to Mexico City by FedEx........$125**
- 1 x Hardware kit from VW of Mexico (NEW) ............$9
TOTAL $275 USD
I paid by PayPal and I got my money back from the VW dealership 4 weeks later.
*Bruce refused to send me the bill, so if he needs genuine parts for his mexican Sedan 1600i he just need to email me.
**The mexican customs charge me a $16 USD import duty.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen. http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-043-119-159

Please Discuss.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the thermostat that fails in the closed position.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrapmetalvw wrote:
bugnut68 wrote:
As has been pointed out, the flaps and thermostat are vital pieces for maximizing the life of the engine, especially crucial when a car is driven daily or at least very regularly. For me, my 1776 had the flaps wired open inside my factory doghouse shroud, but no thermostat. In all honesty, it took me somewhere in the neighborhood of seven years to accrue the 5,000 miles that are on that engine before I sold it to a buddy that's installed it in his baja, so daily driving is, in some respect, relative.
I'm currently building a 2017 that will be an occasional street driver and weekend bracket racer at the local 1/8 mile strip. I will likely run the same set up with that engine's cooling system, though I will have to modify the 36hp Scat shroud to accept the flaps.
For me, at least, my cars are very occasional seasonal play things and I fully accept that I won't get the full life out of the engines if not built to the factory full specs.


1776 and 2017 and factory specs do not go together.


Duly noted, I only intended to bring about the perspective that some folks aren't building engines to necessarily last a lifetime. With the 2.0 liter I'm building, it will be just an occasional driver and odds are it'll be torn apart due to personal boredom and desire for "more" before I ever wear it out.
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bugninva
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugnut68 wrote:
Duly noted, I only intended to bring about the perspective that some folks aren't building engines to necessarily last a lifetime. With the 2.0 liter I'm building, it will be just an occasional driver and odds are it'll be torn apart due to personal boredom and desire for "more" before I ever wear it out.


it doesn't matter, nut.... larger, stock, destroking, whatever, they all need a regulated cooling system.... the same folks that fight to the death that you don't ned to regulate an aircooled's temperature would never dream of not putting in a thermostat in the new stroker SBC they are building...
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