| Author |
Message |
mylopolis
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008
Posts: 123
Location: Sacramento, CA
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject: Power, but no start. Jumping the starter works. |
 |
|
I'm sure this has been well discussed, and I did search, but can't seem to find a solution:
My '73 bus won't start!
Turn the key, everything seems okay. Dash lights up, headlights go out on start, but nothing!
Testing @ the starter:
Jumping the terminals turns it over and she goes
Turning the key gives 12.6V on the signal wire
Voltage drops relatively quickly (12.6, 12.5, 12.4, tick tick) as you hold the key.
Voltage floats back up after you let off the key
Cleaned and tightened battery terminals, tranny ground connections, and starter connections.
Starts fine with a screwdriver, but won't go from the key.
Any ideas? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Where are you measuring this voltage?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clearsurf2001
Samba Vaccinator
Joined: February 26, 2004
Posts: 1671
Location: Dave-AKA-fortyeye-Oceanside, Ca
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sounds like it might be the victim of poor/aged connections. Pretty common on Type IIs - many people rig a relay (fused) from the battery to give a closer shot to activate the starter. Glenn Ring has a little tech drawing and article over on the Cal Look forum showing his setup on a bug.
_________________
Get ready for the injection 
| EverettB wrote: |
| Make sure it is coherent. Rodney |
| mharney wrote: |
I think Glenn has an EMPI crank in his engine. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Change your ignition switch
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mylopolis
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008
Posts: 123
Location: Sacramento, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Where are you measuring this voltage? |
Measuring at the hot terminal on the starter, grounded to the starter mounting nut.
Then, I disconnected the "signal wire" from the starter and tested from that wire to the same starter mounting nut, while friend turned the key.
Charged the battery (and even tried while on charge). 13V reaching the signal wire, same as registers on the hot side of the starter.
Doesn't that effectively rule out the key? Since the signal wire is getting power when turned?
I understand about the relay if the wiring is wearing out and not enough amps coming down the signal wire, but it does seem that the key itself is being okay? no? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Let's suppose that the wire with the signal voltage from the ignition switch is broken except for just one single strand of wire. The way you tested it the voltage would test good. You would have to test the wire under load to know if it really is good. Same could happen with the actual ignition switch. it might be making enough contact to show good voltage but could fail under load because of burned contacts.
Have you tried running a fairly heavy gauge wire from the battery positive post over to terminal 50 on the starter solenoid? This would test if the starter and the starter grounds are good.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mylopolis
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008
Posts: 123
Location: Sacramento, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aeromech wrote: |
Let's suppose that the wire with the signal voltage from the ignition switch is broken except for just one single strand of wire. The way you tested it the voltage would test good. You would have to test the wire under load to know if it really is good. Same could happen with the actual ignition switch. it might be making enough contact to show good voltage but could fail under load because of burned contacts.
|
Makes sense.
| aeromech wrote: |
| Have you tried running a fairly heavy gauge wire from the battery positive post over to terminal 50 on the starter solenoid? This would test if the starter and the starter grounds are good. |
Isn't this what shorting (with a screwdriver, or in my case wrench) the terminals on the starter does? When I did that, it fired straight up with a fury.
Thinking more about this, I found it interesting that the power is plummeting while turning the key, even with the signal wire disconnected (IE, the starter isn't trying to start). Does this imply that something (keyed) is shorting out, stealing my amps that should be going to the starter? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fillmore77
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 280
Location: Montreal
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
YOu can be getting proper voltage downstream from the ignition switch and still not getting enough AMPS to spin the engine. The OE wiring is weak that way, as the wire bringing the power up front and then back to the starter slowly corode, they act a s a big resistor, and eat up your cranking amps. This will not show up on a voltage test.
Your solution sounds like you need a hot start relay, a common upgrade on thes old buses. The relay will get actuated by the original circuit, but needs almost no amps to activate, and will loop the power to the starte without going to the front of the bus and back. Pretty much like your screwdriver does, but without the screwdriver.
The required parts are available as a kit pretty much anywhere they sell bus parts.
_________________
You can have it quickly, you can have it good, you can have it cheap...Pick two...
1977 Bay Westy, stock 2.0l FI, Hailing from Quebec, Canada. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fillmore77 wrote: |
YOu can be getting proper voltage downstream from the ignition switch and still not getting enough AMPS to spin the engine. The OE wiring is weak that way, as the wire bringing the power up front and then back to the starter slowly corode, they act a s a big resistor, and eat up your cranking amps. This will not show up on a voltage test.
Your solution sounds like you need a hot start relay, a common upgrade on thes old buses. The relay will get actuated by the original circuit, but needs almost no amps to activate, and will loop the power to the starte without going to the front of the bus and back. Pretty much like your screwdriver does, but without the screwdriver.
The required parts are available as a kit pretty much anywhere they sell bus parts. |
I've owned many Volkswagens over the last 35 years and I've never had to install the start relay. Replace the ignition switch and you'll fix the bus.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
if you have 12.6 V at the solenoid signal wire at the solenoid then the ignition switch is fine - as long as the connector is on solid. The solenoid is probably sticky which is a common VW starter issue - like every one I have ever owned. Pull the starter and try to spray some WD40 into the area where the solenoid plunger is. Let it run out onto some paper towels to get the dirt out and then spray again with some white grease as best you can. Then try it again. Another way to test it is tap the solenoid while someone turns the key and it will probably pull in. Make sure it is in neutral and the wheels chocked. 12.6 V at the solenoid is adequate to pull it in. Get it fixed soon so you don't fry the ignition switch.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| Another way to test it is tap the solenoid while someone turns the key and it will probably pull in. |
We call that technique "hammerizing"
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
420GOAT
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2006
Posts: 3343
Location: Wilmington, CA on a nice quiet street but still in the 'hood
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| if you have 12.6 V at the solenoid signal wire at the solenoid then the ignition switch is fine - as long as the connector is on solid. The solenoid is probably sticky which is a common VW starter issue - like every one I have ever owned. Pull the starter and try to spray some WD40 into the area where the solenoid plunger is. Let it run out onto some paper towels to get the dirt out and then spray again with some white grease as best you can. Then try it again. Another way to test it is tap the solenoid while someone turns the key and it will probably pull in. Make sure it is in neutral and the wheels chocked. 12.6 V at the solenoid is adequate to pull it in. Get it fixed soon so you don't fry the ignition switch. |
good advice, i used PB blaster instead since its more of an oil. i removed my solenoid and put fresh grease where the solenoid pulls the bendix. i also oiled the gear and bearings while turning it, the rear cap was also removed and fresh grease was applied. its important to spin it while spraying so the old dirt and brush dust washes out. i put the solenoid back on and my shit kicks over like butter! youve got nothing to lose but maybe 30 min. to an hour. good luck.
_________________
once you realize im not impressed we will get along just fine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fillmore77
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 280
Location: Montreal
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aeromech wrote: |
| I've owned many Volkswagens over the last 35 years and I've never had to install the start relay |
That's probably because you don't live where I do, and where most busses spent the first 20 years of their life dealing with long winters and salty roads.  I've cut wires 3 feet away from the connector and stil found half the copper turned to green dust. 
Hot start relays are common North of the border, that and new wiring harnesses.
_________________
You can have it quickly, you can have it good, you can have it cheap...Pick two...
1977 Bay Westy, stock 2.0l FI, Hailing from Quebec, Canada. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fillmore77 wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| I've owned many Volkswagens over the last 35 years and I've never had to install the start relay |
That's probably because you don't live where I do, and where most busses spent the first 20 years of their life dealing with long winters and salty roads. I've cut wires 3 feet away from the connector and stil found half the copper turned to green dust.
Hot start relays are common North of the border, that and new wiring harnesses. |
That's a good point. Do whatever it takes to keep your bus running.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mylopolis
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2008
Posts: 123
Location: Sacramento, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hammerized to no avail.
I live in a very dry part of California, wiring is all gorgeous.
Bought a new starter (spare, if the current one turns out okay). However, it appears different (doesn't have the 'tab' for the signal wire. Going to give that a try hopefully this afternoon.
I tried taking the ignition switch out, but without instructions I can't figure out how to get the damn thing outta there! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
pictures please
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Measure the voltage from the starter body to the negative post of the battery when you turn the key and see it you have a problem with the ground.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RhynoBoy
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2010
Posts: 62
Location: The Sunflower State
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Any good resources on replacing the ignition switch? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RhynoBoy wrote: |
| Any good resources on replacing the ignition switch? |
What year is yours?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RhynoBoy
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2010
Posts: 62
Location: The Sunflower State
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1972. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
