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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: 69 heater channel replacement (pic heavy!) |
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Well I suppose I should hello first really! I've been posting here for a while now, mainly in the bay bus forum as my 71 camper has been the focus of most of my attention until recently. Anyway, I thought I'd share some pics and thoughts on the heater channel/rocker/qtr panel replacement I'm currently undertaking on my 69 ghia coupe. I know there's several body off resto threads (paticularly 'verts) that have included pics and notes on repairing this region but I couldn't find much in the way of body-on-pan channel replacement pictures or many close ups of how the channel & rocker assembly mates with the pillars. So, for your viewing pleasure, I've included as many relevant pictures as possible of the work I've done so far which hopefully will be helpful to anyone who's contemplating such a repair themselves. Please note, this is not intended as a 'how to' on channels, only as a record of what I found and how I tackled it. I'm not a pro, but I have been around A/C VW's for about 15 years and in that time I've had the pleasure of tackling many unpleasant jobs, including beetle heater channels and a host of bay window panels so I knew what I was letting myself in for.
A little background on the car...
California car until 91, in the UK after that, owned for 5 years, my daily drive for 4 years, very few body repairs until now, just a couple of small patches here and there. I'd noticed the paint on the RH rocker starting to bubble quite extensively after the winter this year and had a peek underneath and saw the inner side of the channel had started to flake away in the middle too so I knew I had to do some investigating...
Time went by, the MOT expired, the tyres on the Riv's went flat and a thick layer of dust gathered on the cover...
I ordered an outer rocker panel and an outer rear quarter and set aside a weekend to start some repairs. I figured I'd cut what I needed from the repair panels and graft them onto the existing bodywork. The inner channels as viewed from inside the car looked perfect and (amazingly) the car wasn't leaking water into the floorpan even driving in heavy rain, should be a quick job, just trim these bubbly bits off and away we go!
Uh oh...
That explains why only the faintest wisps of warm air ever reached the windscreen...
You'll notice how I even optimistically started to drill out the spot welds along the lower lip, there really was no need, the entire thing came away in my hands.
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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At this stage I swept up what was left of my bodywork and retreated to consider my options. My initial thought was 'end of the road' for my ownership, but I quickly realised that most people in the market for a Ghia (even those after a bit of a project) would take fright at the rust, meaning I'd be selling to a small pool of people offering tiny money to take it away. Option two wasn't really an option, I'm not the sort to 'hide' the rust and sell it on, especially as hiding was likely to be as time consuming as fixing.
Having decided to bite the bullet, I needed to better understand how the channel & rocker were joined to the car. In this respect I was lucky (I know what you're thinking, 'what does unlucky look like?') the car had minimal welding and no ghastly plates welding the body to the floorpan and, crucially, no interferance with the factory welds. This last point meant that I was able to locate and drill or cut only at the places where the channel was joined to the body. However, the biggest limiting factor was always going to be the requirement to do the job without lifting the body off the floorpan, I had / have no appetite whatsoever for going to that level, plus I have limited space and I also realise I'd be undoing a lot of the work I'd already done over the years, not to mention the extra cost. More importantly, I don't want the car off the road for years as I try to fit it in around life, I want it on the road next spring, that was my internal deadline. So I stared at the thing long and hard before making any further cuts as the last thing I wanted was to find myself halfway through and unable to get the old channel out completely or unable to get the new one in.
First order of business was to knock up a door brace from a luckless table, you'll notice that the frame is mounted to the hinges, there's no cunning plan at work here - I simply couldn't get the screws undone that hold the hinges to the body but they came out of the door OK. I have since read that this may be a good thing as aligning ghia doors from scratch came resort in colourful language and hair pulling. As mentioned, in my more carefree days I'd replaced beetle channels, but I'd done it without bracing the door gap and although luckily it came good in the end, I realised that it wasn't really the way to do things. The ghia does benefit from the natural brace afforded by the rear seat kick panel that spans the tunnel also, which is some thing the bug doesn't have.
With the gap braced, I started to cut. With a Hacksaw. I made a cut close to the base of the hinge pillar, I could see that the main part of the channel was spot welded to the front curved portion and I wanted to be able to remove it with minimal disturbance to the front portion as I was sure this would be left in place. At the other end of the door step, I made a cut right through the channel down to the rubber pan seal (but not into it) and wiggled the big section of the channel and rocker between the A and B posts free. The next cut was behind the B pillar, I was tricky to get a hacksaw in there so I used a handle that just holds the blade and occasionally a hammer and chisel.
LOTS MORE TO COME, OUT OF TIME TO POST ANY MORE TONIGHT! |
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DrakeB
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Joined: July 26, 2010
Posts: 243
Location: Here, obviously
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I applaud you for creating a clear view of what needs to be done. I too am faced with this in the very near future myself, and have had a hard time trying to find a resource that shows exactly what to do and this is it.
Thank you
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32587
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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hpw
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VWguyBruce
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Joined: April 22, 2004
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Location: Waldorf, MD
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the clear pictures. I'll be watching. 
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Bruce
VWguyBruce on the Web
2004 Envoy XL Tow Rig
1997 BMW 540i/6
1986 Jetta GLi - Sold
1967 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Felix |
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ernstben
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I've just done this very task on my ghia, and it looked very similar to yours when I started out. If I can do it, you most certainly can too! Keep up the good work! |
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boleador
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Joined: April 23, 2008
Posts: 197
Location: Hermosa Beach, California
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't wait for more pics!! I've been *thinking* of tackling this myself, your experience will serve as inspiration! |
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Paul Wright
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Joined: November 15, 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Memphis, Ind
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have been waiting for your post.so far so good!!
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I may not be good.......but I sure am slow!! |
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Keep it coming!! This is an excellent post, so often many assume that other's know what they are talking about or what the photo is.
My 69 Coupe is coming into the Garage tomorrow to do this very task, along with some other panel repairs as well.
Curious, you've got your main wiring harness on the Right side of the car?
My USA 69 has the harness on the Left side of the car. You did say this is a California USA Version car.
Dave |
I added another loom when I got the car to route wires for gauges and to carry some additional power from the battery to up front rather than put everything on the original fuse box. |
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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A bit more progress..
Two things I should have mentioned, although it is rather obvious, is firstly the need to remove all the 13mm headed screws that attach the channel to the pan. I knew I'd need some flex of the pan downward to allow me to get the new channel in so all these came out, even ones under the front section I wasn't replacing. As it turns out, all the screws came out easily despite the condition of the channel, none of the twisting and crunching I remember on the bug!
Secondly, before I started to cut sections of the channel out (post door bracing basically) I actually had the new channel and rocker panels in my hand, so I could see where to look for joins on the body. This was important as it would have been easy to cut out metal that should stay in place if I wasn't aware of what the channel actually comprised of. A lot of the metal at the front and back ends was so rotten, it was hard to tell what it once looked like!
The photos above are taken at a slightly later stage when I'd got the majority of the channel and rocker removed from around the B pillar. In hindsight, I actually made life hard for myself as I thought there might be a possibility of leaving the 'Y' piece of heater ducting in place under the rear seat, as it turns out this would not be possible so I could have saved myself the grief of chiseling the runs of weld on the upper and lower sides of that oval pipe that appears to enter the channel at the bottom of the B pillar. You can see the remnants of the upper weld run (it was about 2" long) on the pipe in the photo below, but the lower weld run is impossible to get to with a grinder to clean up in-situ as it is right next to the inside edge ofthe floor pan.
Anyway, turns out I couldn't 'load' the new channel with the Y piece in place so I had to drill the spot welds out and remove it entirely...
Here...
And here...
Now it's out, I could clean up the weld areas that I couldn't get to..
At the rear end of the channel things are a little more self explanatory, the rocker and channel are spot welded to the end panel and seeing as the surrounding metal was toast I just chopped out the rusty section with a slitting disc in the angle grinder. Several panels meet in this region and the metalwork can be up to three layers thick in some places. I intent to reconstruct that area once the channel is in and I know where it's final position is. I also had to cut out a small section of the floorpan edge above the jacking point although this little strip was the extent of pan corrosion, the rest of it looks perfect.
There's lots of work to do around the torsion cover reinforcement panel, but I'm concentrating on the middle chunk first. Tomorrow I'll post some pics of what I found at the front end, all I can say is it doesn't get any prettier!
Ant |
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djkeev
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Dave.
I have those mufflers, took them off as they didn't look weld-freindly! I was going to post a a question as to why the tubes were perforated, now I know.
Cheers
Ant |
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topghia
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Joined: March 12, 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Excellent post! look forward to the next instalment.  |
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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The horror show continues...
I had to tackle the front end now, and this was the bit I wasn't looking forward to. I had established pretty well how everything was joined together here but just had to figure out a way to separate it all! Concentrating on the bit inside the car first, the 'dog-leg' portion of the heater channel that curves around the wheel well is spot welded to the end of the 'box section' of the main channel in about 10 places (you can see where I drilled these out in the pic below) It's also spot welded to the flat closing plate on the very end of the channel also which itself is fixed to the main door pillar with a run of weld. I could get to most of the spots with a drill but it's very difficult to get a grinder near it to deal with the bead of mig weld on the door pillar and also a few of the spot welds are behind the tube that carries warm air to the windscreen. In the end I had to resort to a little chisel action to separate the old channel end plate from between the dog-leg and the door pillar. This resulted in the door pillar moving outwards by about 1/4" but it did allow me enough clearance to extract what was left of the end plate...
I cut through the lower fender section on the outside, and once again started to optimistically drill out the spot welds on the bottom seam, you'd think I'd have learnt by now...
This revealed something that might have once looked like a bulbous hockey stick but now long gone...
A swift lick with the slitting disc got rid of that and revealed an almost perfect lower dogleg section, something which is usually just as rotten as everything else. The lower corner of the front bulkhead was crusty, so I cut a rectangle out to be dealt with later. The areas circled in red below are the remains of the heater channel end plate I described chiseling out above, there was no need to do any work outside the car to remove it as the bottom part had completely corroded away!
Looking on the positive side, it was a lot less rusty now!
Next the fun begins, offering up the new channel & rocker. |
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'll let the pictures do the talking here, basically after the old channel and rocker were out I put the new ones in place just to get a feel for how they would line up with the existing bodywork and of course each other. I put a couple of screws in underneath so they were lined up with the pan OK but I didn't bother with the Y piece under the seat at this stage. I had to lean down on the pan a bit to get them under the B pillar but otherwise that was it.
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djkeev
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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What I should mention at this stage is the quality of the channel and rocker seen here. I feel that given the relative complexity of the channel itself the fit and quality are excellent. The channel is nicely pressed from the correct guage steel and the welding replicates the original with the correct reinforcement plate at the front. The only 'trimming' I did to this piece was a little excess material around the heater outlet (I made sure the little 'flap door' fitted ok at this stage) and a bit of work where the Y piece slots in at the rear but that was it. Obviously the captive nuts for securing to the pan need tapping out too to clean out the paint and I gave the welds a smooth over with a flap wheel but overall I am impressed. New channels aren't cheap, but I'd say they're worth it.
The rocker is nice too, construction is one piece rather than the original two, but this make life easier as less to weld. No work needed with this, just a clean up of the weld surfaces and some decent paint rather than the transit primer.
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djkeev
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popason
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Great Topic.  I am going to book mark this for future reference.
Because I also will be doing this in the near future and this has
great photos and information .Keep up the good work.
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Not even duct tape can fix stupid! |
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