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Floor Pan Replacement Questions
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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These pictures are sickening! Where's the rust? Where's the corrosion? Where's all that gooey seam sealer stuck all over everything? Oh the humanity! Wink How could you not get a great weld bead on that stuff? I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I get excited just looking at that shiny clean metal and the welding potential it presents!
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sandblasting/media makes everything easier Very Happy Very Happy the only way to do it right!!

M and T doesn't carry half of what you think...i worked 100ft from that place at a collision shop...the floors and steel they carry are ordered then drop shipped...you can buy this stuff all over the internet...ive known him for over 12yrs...dave at bugcity has 2x what he has and NOS sheet metal as well.

kev' speciallizes in vert stuff,bows,interior bits and he's one of the best for sure...all the other stuff is typical.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

schell '59 wrote:
...dave at bugcity has 2x what he has and NOS sheet metal as well.


I just don't love their web site. It's a pain to find what you want sometimes, and no pretty pictures to go with the parts. I'm never sure I'm ordering the right part without seeing it first. I can just walk to Kevin's and actually look at the part. Of course all that will change when I move! Wink
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i've talked to dave about that..kev is way more professional on alot of other levels as well...but dave has a ton of stuff and at fair prices..he is now redoing the site as we speak..i still use kev for stuff just more specialty vert stuff...he's a good dude for sure, but I'm a guy when there's a question at hand i want a true vw nut to direct me in the right way..kev is not as knowledged as dave but both have their stronge points...

not to hi jack this thread, but pm me with any other questions and or concerns,I'll be more than happy to word it out with him... i'm actually going there on sat to hang out with the mrs and mine!!!
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

schell '59 wrote:
yeah i've talked to dave about that..kev is way more professional on alot of other levels as well...but dave has a ton of stuff and at fair prices..he is now redoing the site as we speak..i still use kev for stuff just more specialty vert stuff...he's a good dude for sure, but I'm a guy when there's a question at hand i want a true vw nut to direct me in the right way..kev is not as knowledged as dave but both have their stronge points...

not to hi jack this thread, but pm me with any other questions and or concerns,I'll be more than happy to word it out with him... i'm actually going there on sat to hang out with the mrs and mine!!!


I know it may sound lame, but putting the correct picture with the part is probably the one biggest improvement Dave could make to his site. How do you think MAM sells so much junk? Pretty pictures! Hope to meet and talk with Dave sometime at an event, just have to get my bug on the road first.
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy

dude I just pee'd a little !!!

MAM...and pretty pictures soooo true!!
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BXRJIM
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beetlenut wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These pictures are sickening! Where's the rust? Where's the corrosion? Where's all that gooey seam sealer stuck all over everything? Oh the humanity! Wink How could you not get a great weld bead on that stuff? I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I get excited just looking at that shiny clean metal and the welding potential it presents!


Ummm...yeah.....no. This is what I cut out of there. I had to replace that whole corner and do a lot of clean up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Oh yeah, the seam sealer was there too, just hit it with a grinder first.
That bright shiney steele it the replaced bottom structure plate that I cut into shape from a piece in the scrap pile and put the slots in .

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It was a mess but it cleaned up nice.

Jim
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BXRJIM wrote:
Ummm...yeah.....no. This is what I cut out of there. I had to replace that whole corner and do a lot of clean up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can appreciate that, as that is the area I'm working on now. Unfortunately I don't have a blaster to clean the metal to that level. Was the bottom corner of the firewall in that area gone too? A lot of pieces come together at that point. Do you happen to know the size of the two bolts that hold that corner together? I'm thinking M10 x ?
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scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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dreamweaver69
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm. You seam (sic Twisted Evil ) to know how to to the fabrication the correct way.

Question: When putting in floorpans with the body on, would you weld from the top or the bottom?

I have a friend that does welding that is going to help me with this part of the project. He's never done it before, and a buddy said I needed to make sure he welded from the bottom so that the seam would not be visible from underneath. The goal --- I guess --- is so that, down the road of we ever sell it, it would look "factory" from underneath and the seam would be under the carpet.

And, I keep hearing about thie seam sealer... could someone describe what it is, how you use it, and what the final product looks like after you use it?
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BXRJIM
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm no expert like a lot of the guys on here but the thought of having the pan look factory wasn't something that I try to achieve. I over lap repairs in the pan 1/2" and stitch weld every 1" with a 1/2" bead. If you don't want a seam I guess you would have to cut all repair pieces perfectly for a butt weld. I wouldn't recommend this because you are begging for a crack in this area.
I would still overlap this repair with the larger piece on top and hammer and dolly the pieces nice and flat and stitch weld top and bottom. You could grind the welds, use Duraglass and sand before you paint.
I personally see nothing wrong with this type of repair and if I didn't want to do it this way I would buy a whole pan side and weld it in.
You have to ask yourself what kind of money you want to spend and how far you want to take this build: will it be a driver or a show car?
As for the seam seal you could go all out and use SEM epoxy seam sealer but you need a 8oz double tube gun and they are around $85 plus the $40 some for the sealer. Last time I bought some Evercoat seam sealer which is still epoxy but in a split tube with hardener on one side and base on the other. You just need a heavy duty caulking gun to use this stuff and you can get that at Home Depot for about $16. You put a bead of this stuff on every seam in the pan before you coat it with your POR 15 (I think thats what you said you want to use).
I hope this helps and I hope the other guys chime in if something sounds wrong to them.
BeetleNut- I don't Know off hand what size these bolts are. I'm not at home to look either but 10mm sounds about right. I can check later for you if you'd like.

Jim
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3"x10x1.50

i can't really see in your pic but it looks like you took the floor completely off at the spot welds...again i can't see.

you can just remove the existing floor pan lip after you cut next to the chassistunnel and clean the shelf,this can be easily done with a nice chisel tip and an air hammer...the problem with leaving the old floor pan seam that the factory spot welds are corroded and will not burn all the way through the 2 layers as needed...if you leave this "lip" from the old pan you will need to burn through 3 layers instead.

this pic shows the rust underneath the pinch weld after the "strip" has been removed:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my pan quarters, I butt welded them, ground down the bead flush with the rest of the metal, and primed and painted them. You can't even tell there is a weld unless you get very close. I guess if you were very picky, you could use some filler to hide any grinding marks before painting. I've been using Master Series Silver primer, which is self leveling, so it fills most of the grinding marks. I'm sure a year after getting the car back on the road, the caked-on dirt would hide most any repair anyhow.
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a better example of what you want exposed...i cut the pans out,grind this area smooth... finish the disassembly of the chassis and send it off to the blaster...prep the pans for welding,hole punch etc...plug weld every 2" then epoxy it,seam seal it and paint it gloss single stage with clear in the last coat.

I have to do them all that way,the show pans get even more crap,can't take the chance these days with the structural part of the chassis and lawsuits after an accident:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...and this is why it;s important to have penitration and proper welds:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


this can happen to anyone..if these were not welded in correctly...not only would the chassis be twisted worse and break the frame head COMPLETELY away...the body would have folded even farther back as it's surely attached to the frame head and floor edges...floor pans when bolted to the body are a very serious structural feature
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schell '59 wrote:
here's a better example of what you want exposed...i cut the pans out,grind this area smooth... finish the disassembly of the chassis and send it off to the blaster...prep the pans for welding,hole punch etc...plug weld every 2" then epoxy it,seam seal it and paint it gloss single stage with clear in the last coat.

I have to do them all that way,the show pans get even more crap,can't take the chance these days with the structural part of the chassis and lawsuits after an accident:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...and this is why it;s important to have penitration and proper welds:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


this can happen to anyone..if these were not welded in correctly...not only would the chassis be twisted worse and break the frame head COMPLETELY away...the body would have folded even farther back as it's surely attached to the frame head and floor edges...floor pans when bolted to the body are a very serious structural feature





and how many times do we read here about people who rivet, screw or bolt their pans in...... Shocked

They are welded in the factory for a reason Wink
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sooo true!!!

i can't even tell you how many guys "set" them over the old floor pan edes after cutting out the old and tack welded them in place...

after taking the body off a car and bringing the pan to the blaster,we turned it upside down and jumped on the pans and the popped right out!!

can you imagine getting hit from behind? the floor would rip backwards from the impact of the crash sending the seat rearward...you would surely suffer bad!!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are freekin me out a little. Smile
Here's a couple of pics of what I'm working with:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The driver's sied rear was already cut out when I bought it. Since this picture was taken we have gone through and cleaned it up and sanded it down and it looks like just the back 1/4 section is all it needs.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The passenger side is a bit different... there's more rust through and through and, while it doesn't go quite this far, the previous owner cut it a couple of inches past where the seat rails start. I think this is where he gave up on the project and decided to drop the whole idea of fizing the car.


I will take some more current pictures in the next few days. What most of the pictures I have seen is where the whole pans are replaced and the body is taken off the chassis. I really don't wnat to do this, and it seems that there isn't really a way to replace whole pans correctly without taking the body off. I just want to make sure that structurally it will be safe if I replace just partial pans.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking of pan replacement. have any of you seen the latest video by chris at classic vw bugs on battery tray replacement? i am not going to criticize it. i think you may find it interesting.
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can totally do them in the car...i choose o do them with the body removed as i'm restoring the car anyways, a restoration not simply throwing paint and new rubbers in a car....so i opt to go alot farther.

here's a vert super install:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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keep in mind this car was a huge pile os garbage and the owner was doing a cheap flip....though they came out decent,i just don't feel 100% with doing it this way,sure it's strong,functional and sturdy..just looks sloppy compared to the body off method.

the pans still have the correct bolt section on the sides just like factory so the body still can be removed in time,these pans do not come with seat pedistals so they needed to be cut off or new ones purchased.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you guys like to weld the floors pans in? i found out the hard way that mine were just "glued" on. not a weld it sight.
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not about "liking" to weld em in..it's pretty much the way it should be done...period.

your licky you didn't get in an accident with that thing..and if you did,i hope you faired well!!

it's a structural part of the chassis and ties so many areas together for complete integrity and strength...to just scetion pans and gaff stuff in is only gonna bite you in the ass.

and just plain lazy.
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