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Unable to bleed front breaks
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:27 am    Post subject: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Hello, i started working on my '74. 1200J beetle. We changed everything concerning the brake system (new break pads, cylinders, master cylinder, pipes...), the problem occured when we first replaced the small wheel cylinders, we tried to air it out but it turned out that the master cylinder was faulty so we bought a new one. When it got mounted we tried bleeding out our brakes, the rear ones bleed just fine, but when we start with the front ones everything is going good up until we bleed it, then the pedal drops as if there is no oil inside, there is air inside the oil that came out and the pedal becomes really soft. If i don't start pumping right away and just leave the pedal for maybe 10-15 seconds there is resistance in it, as if the oil is not filling the chambers really good, but if i start pumping right away i get resistance on the pedal again, so we get stuck in a loop of not being able to bleed them properly. So, any advice maybe on what we could do?

Thank you

edit: I tried tightening all my brakes, there is always enough oil at every point of bleeding, we go at the right order (rear right, rear left, front right, front left), the little piston behind the pedal is also adjusted correctly.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

First off, I know you're not putting engine oil in your brake system. We just call it brake fluid.

What is your method of bleeding the brakes? It might be worth using a vacuum pump style bleeder to suck the brake fluid through the small cylinder at the wheels.
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Yes, sorry english is not my first language, we call it "oil" Very Happy.
Well, the method is rather old fashioned, pumping the brakes and releasing it down on the brake nipple until there is no more air bubbles in there, while constantly checking the fluid levels.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

You should not pump the brake. This creates air bubbles in the lines. Have someone sit inside while you go to all wheels and open each line. Do it twice.

You may need to bleed the rear brakes again. The issue may be there. Otherwise, maybe you have an issue in your lines. Check all the hard lines. Look for leaks inside the car too. I found one under my seat once.
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:
You should not pump the brake. This creates air bubbles in the lines. Have someone sit inside while you go to all wheels and open each line. Do it twice.

You may need to bleed the rear brakes again. The issue may be there. Otherwise, maybe you have an issue in your lines. Check all the hard lines. Look for leaks inside the car too. I found one under my seat once.


I should try that, i know that on other cars you usually do pump the brakes so the fluid moves around, first time working on a beetle. Could you maybe describe it a little more in detail, do i press the brake down and then just unscrew the little nipples, or dont press it?
And regarding the lines, im not sure if its the problem, because the rear ones work just fine, its the front ones that are the problem, and the front lines are all good
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Vipraxay wrote:

I should try that, i know that on other cars you usually do pump the brakes so the fluid moves around, first time working on a beetle. Could you maybe describe it a little more in detail, do i press the brake down and then just unscrew the little nipples, or dont press it?


I ask for my wife's help. She sits in the car. I ask her to press and she presses and holds the pedal. I let the air out and then close it. I then let her know I am done and she releases the pedal. I do this until I only see liquid coming out. I go around the car twice doing this.
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:
Vipraxay wrote:

I should try that, i know that on other cars you usually do pump the brakes so the fluid moves around, first time working on a beetle. Could you maybe describe it a little more in detail, do i press the brake down and then just unscrew the little nipples, or dont press it?


I ask for my wife's help. She sits in the car. I ask her to press and she presses and holds the pedal. I let the air out and then close it. I then let her know I am done and she releases the pedal. I do this until I only see liquid coming out. I go around the car twice doing this.


Thank you, i'll try it tomorrow and let you know if it worked.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

I don’t know about European Beetles, but in the U.S.A., we got dual master cylinders. That means, you start bleeding the front brakes, then do the rear brakes. It’s just the opposite of bleeding the earlier Beetles.

Tim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
I don’t know about European Beetles, but in the U.S.A., we got dual master cylinders. That means, you start bleeding the front brakes, then do the rear brakes. It’s just the opposite of bleeding the earlier Beetles.

Tim

Yes! Start with the front first. RF,LF,RR,LR. Even if it is fitted with discs or drums!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

I just dealt with a very similar issue on my 71 Super. I replaced every part, but the system would not bleed properly. Turns out the the two metal tubes running from the reservoir down to the master were heavily corroded on the inside and all the junk flowed into the new master cylinder and destroyed it. Because it took me a bit to figure that out I pumped all that garbage down into the wheel cylinders as well. I ended up replacing everything again and replaced the two metal tubes with hose that was specifically made for connecting master cylinders to reservoirs. All good now.
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Just to let everyone know, we managed to make it work. We combined the techniques you all provided, took apart the master cylinder checked if everything was alright, cleaned the pipes, and then when bleeding, pressed the pedal, opened the nipple (while keeping the pedal pressed), tightening the nipple and then SLOWLY releasing the pedal. Did this until there was no more air bubbles, went around the car twice to be sure. The order of bleeding went: FR, FL, RR, RL.

Thank you everyone for the help, hope this helps someone else in the future Very Happy
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Vipraxay, I’m glad you were able to fix your problem. And your English is quite good, especially for a second language.

Show us a photo of your Beetle when you get the time.

Tim
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
Vipraxay, I’m glad you were able to fix your problem. And your English is quite good, especially for a second language.

Show us a photo of your Beetle when you get the time.

Tim


Hahahahha, thank you, ill try to take some photos while its getting restored. Just need to get some good weather, its rainy these days Very Happy
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
Vipraxay, I’m glad you were able to fix your problem. And your English is quite good, especially for a second language.

Show us a photo of your Beetle when you get the time.

Tim


Hahahahha, thank you, ill try to take some photos while its getting restored. Just need to get some good weather, its rainy these days Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Another thing not mentioned, make sure there is free play at the rod that presses the master cylinder. Since you replaced the master, really important to check and make sure you are not holding the master open. Another thing some people do is adjust the brake shoes so they are locking up the drums, then bleed, then re adjust.
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Vipraxay
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Unable to bleed front breaks Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
Vipraxay, I’m glad you were able to fix your problem. And your English is quite good, especially for a second language.

Show us a photo of your Beetle when you get the time.

Tim



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here you go, dont mind all the rust, paint spots and stupid decals Rolling Eyes , its still in the process of getting ready, this was a little bit of a test drive Very Happy
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