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johneliot Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 2189 Location: Chico, CA
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: Flaps and Tin |
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Checking through old post did not give me a definitive answer. Do you need to use the flaps, thermostat or tin on a buggy? The most I can gather was the tin on the bottom to protect the push rod tubes and such, but does any of it help to cool the engine? _________________ John
There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress.
Mark Twain
69 bug - "The Grey Ghost" |
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jaymonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2005 Posts: 433
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt 10% of buggy's have a thermostat installed. Not really needed, it'll just warm up slower. _________________ 1969 Beetle (Sadie)
1953 Kombi 23A -Sold
1969 Buggy Sold
1975 Buggy underdevelopment
insta @boldroguebuggy |
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wythac Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2004 Posts: 2791
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am a believer in retaining the stock thermostat hardware. It is as important as a system that allows the engine to heat up as it is to provide cooling.
However. I'll bet if you took a poll here there would be less than 1 or 2 in 10 of us that actually have a fully functioning thermostat system. Decades of people throwing them away leave very few of these systems complete and operational. I have been told recently that they have stopped manufacturing the copper bellows that operates the flaps. I haven't tested that statement by looking for one. but I will soon, as if there are any left I want a spare.
All that being said....lots of bugs, buses and buggys out there running without them. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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The flaps help the engine warm up.... you need them, even on a dune buddy. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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johneliot Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 2189 Location: Chico, CA
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure if my buggy has flaps of not due to the fact it is still at my sisters house waiting to be towed home. I have a set of doghouse flaps and a set of non-doghouse flaps plus a thermostat. Not a problem to add if necessary. What about any of the other tin? _________________ John
There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress.
Mark Twain
69 bug - "The Grey Ghost" |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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The tin around the pulley is not needed but all the tin on top and under the engine is. It helps control the flow of air over the cylinders. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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LeeVW Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2006 Posts: 1016
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Technically, the whole system is needed for maximum engine life.
I had a fully functional thermostat system in my buggy at first. Then one day the skid plate bottomed out hard and pushed the engine cage up into the lower tinware. Shortly after that, I discovered an oil leak. It was coming from the pushrod tube that the thermostat had been jammed into. On another run, I saw the same thing happen on a friend's buggy. Since then, I don't use the thermostat anymore (and the engine cage has been tied into the buggy's cage, so it doesn't flex like that anymore). I do have a set of flaps installed, but they are wired fully open. The flaps help direct the cooling air where it belongs, so I always install them.
Lee |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4925 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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LeeVW wrote: |
Technically, the whole system is needed for maximum engine life. |
Agreed. I don't know that anyone here on the forum knows more about the VW engine cooling requirements than the German engineers that designed it...
Some VW parts suppliers still offer cooling flap complete assemblies -
New thermostats:
http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Scr...gory_Code=
The newer style Mexican thermostats are also still available.
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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wythac Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2004 Posts: 2791
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Wow. A hundred bucks for one of those little copper things. I thought I was getting hosed when I paid 50 for mine a long time ago.
Didget is right.....Although this forum is all about monkeying with the VW's original design, it is pretty tough to out engineer a VW engineer. They were not real big on adding parts and weight for something that wasn't needed. The questions I like to pose to someone asking why I retain that hardware are; Do you drive a watercooled car? Would it occur to you that removing the thermostat in that car is a good idea?
I have the original cooling thermostat and hardware on the motor I have in my buggy and it is now at about the 80K mark. The motor was in a bus and a convertible before that. One of the reasons for that longevity is the inclusion of the cooling hardware.
I put pushrod protectors under the cylinders, and modified the RH one to accept the T-stat hardware. I designed the engine cage to protect that hardware, as it does stick down about an inch, inch and a half on that side. I could see how the thermostat bracket could easily get bent up into a pushrod and start a leak. |
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lostinbaja Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004 Posts: 4036 Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have never run flaps or t-stats on my buggies or Bajas since I started playing with VW's in 1975. I build my own engines and build engines for friends and I have never had or seen a problem that would be caused by inconsistant cooling. Whenever I freshen up an engine I check the cylinders for out of round, taper and strange wear patterns and I have yet to see any issues.
I don't think it is as much of an issue on a light vehicle with an open engine compartment, especially when the vehicle is not run in cold weather. _________________ Jerry...
If it's being towed, it must be a trailer!
"Vee Grow Too Soon Oldt Und Too Late Schmardt"
RIP Morgan
My photos
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album92 |
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wythac Samba Member
Joined: August 02, 2004 Posts: 2791
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Given the cost of parts, I think what I would make sense is that if you have the parts, use them, if you don't, don't sweat it. Like I posted earlier...I'll bet less than 1 in 10 engines have this installed.
I've run motors both ways. The biggest difference that I noticed was the cabin heat was better in the car(a beetle) with the thermostat. Not an issue if you aren't trying to heat your buggy, as few if any of us are. The climate where I live is cold and I do occassionaly drive my car in the winter anyway....It takes quite awhile for the flaps to open up all the way this time of year. |
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