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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:03 am Post subject: |
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[quote="guteandtite"]
| bally wrote: |
I'm sure you did. I'm keen to find something though as I'm not 100% confident in the one I have so hope something will come up... The long and the short of it is that if I can't get the Saxomat working I can't drive the car. Period.
Thanks for the update - I'll get photos and details of how mine looks over the weekend.
Cheers,
Dave[/quote
thank you Dave, would be cool to have someone take video from the back seat of the car driving! |
It sure will - but you'll have to do it first as mine won't hit the road until next year now... I'm excited to see them both driving  |
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Durby
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Italy
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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Good work Durby! |
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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Here’s the oil seal we’ve used:
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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some pics of the Saxomat following skimming of the flywheel surfaces and the re-spraying of the new bronze on the tabs. The hole in the plate is as a result of it being welded to a bracket to enable the freshly sprayed bronze to be machined back to a flat surface. I’m a little worried about the longevity of this component hence my still looking out for another starting clutch – obviously I’ll consider anything – even Bret’s cast off now he has an NOS one
It turns out the Saxomat bolt and 30 horse flywheel bolt are the same length in my case:
The Saxomat has been machine with extra dowel holes to suit the 30 horse crank:
Here are some shots of the stamps on my Saxomat:
After quite a lot of head scratching and trying different combinations of shims (my shims measure 0.3mm and 0.32mm, the paper gasket measures 0.23mm) with both the Saxomat and 30 horse flywheel I’ve made some conclusions:
The reason I have no end float is because the Saxomat is fouling on something. It turns out this something is the oil seal. I’ve taken lots of measurements and reckon with a bit of machining the Saxomat plate can be made to have the same key dimensions as the stock flywheel and therefore fit and work.
Here’s how I got there – all measurements were as accurate as I could take them at the time, more accurate readings will be needed prior to specifying the machining required:
I measured the distance from the front edge to the crank mating surface on both. On the Saxomat it measures 3.6mm on the flywheel it is 3.2mm
I then measured the distance from the front edge to the ridge on the Saxomat that I initially thought was fouling on the case (I subtracted the thickness of the steel straight edge I was using):
I thought this ridge may be fouling on the machined surface on the rear of the engine block but when I measured them both they do not foul:
I then measured the distance from the front edge of both units to the oil seal mating surface – the Saxomat measured 9.67mm, the flywheel 13mm:
Finally I measured the difference in the distance from the front edge to the centreline of the ring gear – this distance was approx 1.14mm more on the Saxomat than on the flywheel:
On the engine block the distance from the oil seal face to the end of the crank is 7.27mm – I don’t have a photo of that.
Here’s a quick sketch of the measurements I took:
Face A mates against Face C and Face B should clear Face D.
So, in my mind, the difference between Face A and B should be the same for both the Saxomat and the flywheel. A little should be taken off the front edge of the Saxomat (approx 0.4mm) and the shoulder (to Face B from the front edge) should be turned down until that distance is 13mm. Doing this will enable me to set the end float with no fouling.
Am I making the right noises here?
Cheers,
Dave |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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RichOakley
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
This is a bit of an epic journey!! I wish I had more time to help you out, but what you're doing above seems to make sense!!
See you on Sunday.
Rich. |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:03 am Post subject: |
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hey Dave,
so is that special thinner flywheel seal not going to work? are you just going to thin down the snout of the saxomat flywheel to the dimensions of the 36hp flywheel? that seems like an easier thing to do. i almost think you should consider having welding done inside the well where the dowel pins are and then have it machined back to the same dimensions as the 36hp so that it holds the flywheel centered- i believe the dowels may shear off if they are so employed as the only means of both centering and also holding the wheel from rotating away from its mating to the crankshaft. have you checked as well the ring gear alignment (distance from engine case for saxomat and also 36hp stock flywheels) as the starter or ring gear will get wrecked if only half way engaging due to this distance. these are some of things i will be adressing to my machinist.
_________________
Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Hey Dave,
I received a package today! 2 NOS gear clutch discs, 2 NOS throw out plates and 2 NOS sintered bronze starting clutch discs.
I measured the sintered bronze pucks and they are a total of 3.75mm thick. This measurement includes both bronze pads and the sheet metal sandwiched in between. You may be ok with 4mm, if you have problems with the clutch not disengaging, you may Need to have the pucks machined down to 3.75 mmtotal thickness.
_________________
Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| guteandtite wrote: |
hey Dave,
so is that special thinner flywheel seal not going to work? are you just going to thin down the snout of the saxomat flywheel to the dimensions of the 36hp flywheel? that seems like an easier thing to do. i almost think you should consider having welding done inside the well where the dowel pins are and then have it machined back to the same dimensions as the 36hp so that it holds the flywheel centered- i believe the dowels may shear off if they are so employed as the only means of both centering and also holding the wheel from rotating away from its mating to the crankshaft. have you checked as well the ring gear alignment (distance from engine case for saxomat and also 36hp stock flywheels) as the starter or ring gear will get wrecked if only half way engaging due to this distance. these are some of things i will be adressing to my machinist. |
You make some good points there Bret - maybe the thinner seal is a red herring; if I'm going to be getting the saxomat machined to match the original flywheel then the original seal should suit. I'll print your suggestions off and take them with me and run through all you suggest - I'm not convinced we need to weld and machine the centre, but I'll certainly bring it up.
I posted the ring gear check earlier
| Quote: |
Finally I measured the difference in the distance from the front edge to the centreline of the ring gear – this distance was approx 1.14mm more on the Saxomat than on the flywheel:
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or is this not what you meant?
Congratulations on scoring two NOS starting clutches and two NOS drive clutches. You know I could really do with a pair and I'm sure you don't need two spares  I'd really appreciate you selling one set on to me please.
Cheers,
Dave |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| bally wrote: |
| guteandtite wrote: |
hey Dave,
so is that special thinner flywheel seal not going to work? are you just going to thin down the snout of the saxomat flywheel to the dimensions of the 36hp flywheel? that seems like an easier thing to do. i almost think you should consider having welding done inside the well where the dowel pins are and then have it machined back to the same dimensions as the 36hp so that it holds the flywheel centered- i believe the dowels may shear off if they are so employed as the only means of both centering and also holding the wheel from rotating away from its mating to the crankshaft. have you checked as well the ring gear alignment (distance from engine case for saxomat and also 36hp stock flywheels) as the starter or ring gear will get wrecked if only half way engaging due to this distance. these are some of things i will be adressing to my machinist. |
You make some good points there Bret - maybe the thinner seal is a red herring; if I'm going to be getting the saxomat machined to match the original flywheel then the original seal should suit. I'll print your suggestions off and take them with me and run through all you suggest - I'm not convinced we need to weld and machine the centre, but I'll certainly bring it up.
I posted the ring gear check earlier
| Quote: |
Finally I measured the difference in the distance from the front edge to the centreline of the ring gear – this distance was approx 1.14mm more on the Saxomat than on the flywheel:
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or is this not what you meant?
Congratulations on scoring two NOS starting clutches and two NOS drive clutches. You know I could really do with a pair and I'm sure you don't need two spares I'd really appreciate you selling one set on to me please.
Cheers,
Dave |
Hey Dave, the dimension I mentioned about the ring gear is what you mentioned above, I don't think 1.14 mm will be an issue. In fact, since it's closer to the starter, that's a good thing!! Try contacting volkswagen haus in Germany as they have both clutches on stock. I don't want to sell mine as 1 set is going in the car and one set is a spare.
_________________
Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Durby wrote: |
Ciao guteandtite,
well... my Beetle (and future Herbie) born in november 1962 (my '63) and lived in Ennepetal (Germany) till last febraury, when I bought him and brought him to Italy.
The first owner was an old man who had no driving license; so the car in 1989 had only 28.000 km. As he had no drivind license, he used the Beetle just in the streets of his town (Ennepetal) and only a few days during a year.
In the late 90s, when the first owner died, the car was bought by the second owner, the guy who sold me it a few months ago.
Now the car has about 78.000 km.
What about the Saxomat? It loses oil 
Some days it works well, some days it works worse.
This winter we will remove engine and clutch and we will try to understand which is the problem. |
Durby, what do you mean by the saxomat loses oil? it has no oil, you must have a blown flywheel seal, a 10.00 part, and an engine pull/replace weekend and youre good
_________________
Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Dave,
with your starting clutch pucks being redone to 4mm, does it spin freely within the flywheel when assembled? id imagine that you should be fine as even though original was 3.65-3.75mm think, the flywheel and freewheel surfaces have probably worn more than enough, that 4mm should be great! I hope youre able to post some youtube videos when the car is together and driving, im excited to see yours in action!!
_________________
Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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bally
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 1182
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect you are right that mine should be ok at 4mm as the two flywheel surfaces were a little scored so have had the faces skimmed smooth again. I haven't tried assembling it and spinning it as I've been concentrating on why I had no end float. I'm keen to see that happening so I'll give it a go when I get some time.
I'm not going to be on the road any time soon so I suspect you'll be leading the way on that one - keep us posted!
Cheers,
Dave |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26315
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:37 am Post subject: |
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I like how he goes all out to get it restored, but then installs split axle boots with the seam straight up...  |
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
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