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Distributor drive gear problem Engine removed other ?s
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Distributor drive gear problem Engine removed other ?s Reply with quote

Hey guys, OK I have to throw in the towel and ask, I need some help here. 1971 with a stock 1600dp. I recently changed out my 009 for a new Mexican Bosch 034. I had it inspected by an air cooled only shop that I have confidence in. went to install the 034, the distributor shaft would spin freely. The distributor drive gear never came out, spring is in place, the 009 and 034 are identical in length, and the 009 can now spin freely when fully seated as well.... but not all the time. Both now will sometimes lock in place and come out (spin freely) by hand and sometimes while driving. I searched and found quite a bit relating to this issue, used many of the solutions such as a new clamp because mine was actually bent, but the issue remains. But I may have a new twist and I would like some opinions on the matter. Let me explain....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Sorry for the mondo pic, I'm doing this whole post on my phone, but the detail on the wear is what has me in a fit. This is a picture of the 009, obviously there is some ugly wear going on. I am experiencing the timing "slip" while driving, it seems there is minimal engagement causing it to move and sometimes disengage completely while driving. It never started doing this until I changed dizzys, I assume it was just worn into the sweet spot and lost it when I went for the 034. I am assuming from my research that there may be only one or hopefully not zero washers under the drive gear. I have not pulled the gear yet I wanted to see what you guys think. I'm also nervous about dropping said washers into the case during removal and replacement..... so any advice on that one? Thanks in advance Gents.


Last edited by 19Frost71 on Yesterday 9:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you spun the rotor a full 360 to see if the shaft will drop down fully? It may grap lightly when 180 out but would drift with time just as you are seeing.

If that doesn't work then pull the drive and making sure the thrust washers are in place and that the drive hasn't cut down into the thrust surface of the case.
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it will spin around 360 multiple times, but sometimes you can get it to catch and that is how I have it driving normally, then it starts to slip. I guess it's time to pull the gear....
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I forgot to ask about replacement washers if they are in fact needed, as I understand they are a special something. Does anybody know of a good source for these?
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asiab3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drive gear coming out would be borderline impossible. Plus, the washers are really thin; it would take many more than the two required to make the height difference you're seeing.

Have you physically looked down the hole to check for obstructions? Did the washer from under the 13mm M8 nut fall down the drive hole?
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No its super clean in there, I've been struggling with this for longer than I want to admit. the spring is in, I line up the teeth before I put the dizzy in so it should be in exactly the position to slide in. And it's fully seated. No room at all.
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asiab3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How hard was the original distributor to get out?

And does the base of the fat part of each distributor fully seat to the clamp and the case with no gaps?
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

009 came out easily, it's all the way down for sure, I've even tapped it all the way around with a mallet to be sure. New clamp is flush with the case, all tightened down.
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Tcash Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As suggested you are going to need to pull the drive gear. Use a magnet and fish the washer or washers out.
Measure the washers.
A 0.6 mm washer, two are required to start with.
A 1.3 mm washer, only one is required to start with.
You can use additional washers to take up the play between the distributor drive gear and distributor.
Or cut the dist. housing down to allow it to seat in the case further.

Good Luck
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent info, perfect. But are those washers special material /hardness /polished as I've heard? I can't think just any washer will do, not sure exactly what to look for. Thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But are those washers special material /hardness /polished as I've heard?
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Distributor-Drive-Pinion-Washers-Pinion-Shims-p/111-105-235a.htm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the washers cannot be at fault. The bottom of the clamp must be sitting on the block, and the distributor must be sitting on the clamp. No gaps in either place. If there is a gap then that is your problem. There is also a spring that keeps the gear from hopping.

The reason there are multiple washers is for lubrication. Each washer slows the spin between surfaces just a little, like the 3 main thrust washers do. That allows oil to get in and lowers the differences in speed each surface sees.

I would take a small piece of modeling clay about the size of a pea with a little oil on it to make it not as sticky so you can remove it when you are done, and place it on the top of the gear then slide the distributor in, seat it and take it back out. See how much clearance you are dealing with between the gear and distributor. Then you can decide where you go next.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tangs on bottom if distributor may not be engaging fully into drive gear. Offset on tangs must be matched, gear to distributor. Mechanical distributors can have the tangs opposite from vacuum dizys, Therefore the rotors will face in opposite directions

Also be sure the clamp on dizy shaft is not too low to allow full engagement of the tangs. Maybe try installing dizy with out clamp and first see if you are getting the tangs to "drop in" fully. Then repeat with same exact position but with clamp.

If the new and old dizys have opposite positioned tangs, then swap ignition wires to opposite locations on the cap. Swapping wires would prevent you from possibly loosing the gear washer in the bottom of your engine, and would prevent any other problem at this time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PITA but doable Wink
Jack the bus up on the driver side,try to get the dizzy hole straight up,pull fuel pump&spacer,barrow a dizzydrive puller or a good strong magnet,twist while pulling &re-installing,,,check the hardened washers,yes they are special Wink re-install as per Bentley manual!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGKent, there are absolutely no gaps between dizzy,clamp, and case. This is why I'm wondering if maybe the enough washers were not installed. From the wear on the 009, it seems to me that it was just barely catching. I need to find some modeling clay for your test.

CRusty, I see the offset, and am taking great care in keeping it all in line as I install the dizzy. The tangs aren't reversed as my plug wires are in the same place as with the 009, and I can get it running sweet as a nut, but it will eventually slip out while driving and the obvious results follow. I will try removing the clamp and see how far down it sits.

Madmike, thanks for the tips, I'm a little nervous about pulling the gear, I'm starting to regret messing with my 009 as it was working ok, so I've got to convince myself I won't do more damage here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All you need to do is measure to find out where the problem is. From dist. seating ledge to very bottom of drive dog tangs
is 49.95 mm on a Bosch dist. I have at hand. The distance from case surface, plus clamp thickness, to the bottom of the slots in the pinion gear
should tell you what you need to know. I recall seeing a report that some Chinese imitation distributors did not have the correct dimensions.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to find some modeling clay for your test.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible when you pulled the 034 that the drive shaft was lifted and the washer fell in. As kreemoweet said = measuredown the distrib hole 49.95 mm. If it's more, you gotta pull the drive shaft.
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19Frost71
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Measures 53.18 to the rim. Hooray. Any last second pointers on pulling it? I've got it at TDC on #1, going to use a magnet and see what happens.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magnet won't get it out, it's a strong magnet too. By the way Kreme the measurement of the distributor length is bang on 50mm as you described. Mines a new Bosch from Mexico. I'm guessing the flaps for an expansion tool?
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