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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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 Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: straight cut gear backlash |
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What is the max for the backlash on straight cut gears? I have .008..Stock is about .002
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Probably gonna be loud with that much backlash, I'd try to get it closer.
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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What kind of noise will it make and is it bad or damage could be done? Ill need a new set of gears correct?
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76904
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Loud gears get old real fast.
I had a friend with loud gears. After driving it for one season he had me split the case and put stock helical gears in.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have no whine,Just curious if its bad to have .008 and if there will be damage done.
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craigman
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 2397
Location: redding
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| Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| at the very least it will do is give you valve timing scatter. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| what kind of gears? new or old? |
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1432
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2006
Posts: 399
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| if steel .008" will not be a problem, run them, btw gear whine is generated by poor quality of surface finish, not clearance. |
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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VIN
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2006
Posts: 941
Location: phoenix
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| how do you even adjust the lash with those gears, they only come in 1 size, no? |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I normally deburr & dfl coat all of my gears, not much noise at all.I have 2 sets of the procomp gear sets, but havent tried them yet,the crank gear was about .001 biger than the crank,they said they were sending me a new one.some of thier stuff is china and some is austraila.no sticker on these .I have used plenty opf the austraila timing sets and the quality,fit,finish etc. is the best I have ever used. much better than cloyes,trw manly..hmm does any body make a belt drive for these vw?and of corse a reverse cam&oil,pump. |
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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imagine replacing timing belt on an air cooled.Ill run it and see what I get.
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vdubnut58
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2005
Posts: 663
Location: Cali
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| My straight cuts had too much back lash. They make noise at idle. I called berg and they had two old magnum straight cuts on the shelf. They were a +3. After swapping around crank gears got mine to .006 not as tight as I wanted. But as good as I could get. This was about 9 months ago. So they may have one left. |
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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What was your lash before the +3?
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9462
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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You get what you get w/ straight cut gears. BAcklash is all over. Specially if the case was linebored over w/ worn bushings.
Best to use the helicals if street engine. Just gotta make sure the bolts are machined in the stock gear correctly or it can work loose and you end up w/ an early teardown. |
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mightymouse
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 4220
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 1432 wrote: |
| if steel .008" will not be a problem, run them, btw gear whine is generated by poor quality of surface finish, not clearance. |
HUH?
The amount of sound generated has nothing to do with quality of finish. Its the clearance and gear mesh.
The tighter it is, the louder it will be.
I have magnum cam gears that i bought from GBE nearly 16 years ago. They have prob 100k miles on em. They still whine like the day they were installed new. Its a wonderful sound.
I had the motor apart recently, and after that many miles the teeth are polished to a beautiful shine. No imperfections at all.
As for 8 thou, it will clack like a diesel.
Seems all new cam gears are coming too small and have terrible clearance numbers. OR all new cases have the cam a tad low from years of wear on the mold.
One way or the other, ive been running acrossed this a lot.
Oil pumps fit loose in the new cases, and cam gears have too much clearance. SUCKS if you ask me.
Shit quality control is killing us.
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Note to EVERYONE.
Know your ZDDP levels or you WILL lose a cam and lifters. |
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Beatles_1969
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 179
Location: Jamestown Ny
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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my oil pump is a tight fit actually.Its an AS41 case.itll sound like a diesel truck when at idle or all the time?
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1432
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2006
Posts: 399
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mightymouse wrote: |
| 1432 wrote: |
| if steel .008" will not be a problem, run them, btw gear whine is generated by poor quality of surface finish, not clearance. |
HUH?
The amount of sound generated has nothing to do with quality of finish. Its the clearance and gear mesh. |
I make gears for a living , you are wrong |
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mightymouse
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 4220
Location: las vegas
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| 1432 wrote: |
| mightymouse wrote: |
| 1432 wrote: |
| if steel .008" will not be a problem, run them, btw gear whine is generated by poor quality of surface finish, not clearance. |
HUH?
The amount of sound generated has nothing to do with quality of finish. Its the clearance and gear mesh. |
I make gears for a living , you are wrong |
Well i have built so many engines i stopped counting. If you keep getting plus sized cam gears till theres no clearance they just keep getting louder.
Ever heard of pete jackson gear drive? Yeah... super high quality. And they are the loudest money can buy.
Call jason lauffer and ask him, thats how they used to make russ's sloval so loud. TIGHT ass cam gear clearance. Loosen the cam gear clearance and what do you get? silence... but knocking. That should explain it right there. If it were tooth face finish, they would still whine. But they do not.
Wonder why reduction boxes whine? yeah... it has NOTHING to do with the finish on the gears. They are literally perfect and yet they whine.
Its just what straight cut style gears do.
And so your telling me, that after 100K miles of polishing by USE inside the engine, my cam gears still have a terrible finish? May want to run that by magnum... the best cam gear company there is.
The surfaces look like mirrors they are so nice.
The amount of grain that would be needed on the surface of a tooth that small to produce THAT much noise... isnt possible IMO.
So weve got, vw straight cut gears... they whine, vw reduction box gears.... they whine, pete jackson and every other manufacturer of gear drive for american cars... they all whine, and any transmission with straight cut gears in it, including several i know with 18000 dollar gear sets made of the best material money can buy for 2500 hp drag cars... they whine.
so i guess ALL of those items in totally different uses are all made with shitty faces on the gears? are you serious?
Im not trying to be a dick or disrespect what you may do for a living. But i have been at this over 20 years and am no slouch when it comes to engineering and design.
I build, repair and fab a lot of stuff. You cant do that if your clueless...lol
So..... it would take some serious info to convince me that everything ive known and held in my hands over the years.... is wrong.
We put belt drives in our V8 stuff for people who dislike noise, cause its been known since the dawn of time that straight cuts whine. Thats just what they do. If it was just gear tooth facing that was the culprit, the sound would change over time as the grain changed. And certain manufacturers would be able to spend more money on materials and make a silent straight cut set.... never has happened cause its not possible.
Now i dont care if you just roast me to the ends of the earth and back, id like to see how this is explained.
I dont mind learning new stuff, but this defies all logic IMO.
Dave
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Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.
Thomas Jefferson
Note to EVERYONE.
Know your ZDDP levels or you WILL lose a cam and lifters. |
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hell yeah mightymouse....you tell him.
I know what ya mean about pete jackson got lots of v8 drag racer
friends and they is loud...  |
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