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Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget?
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HunterTheBusHunter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Ive read many other threads on this topic in the past weeks and still have yet to get a realistic answer. I currently have a '71 standard beetle 1600dp AE casting. I would like to get a little better performance out of the old girl on d budget, but still maintain reliability. Ive been researching 2275, 1914, 1835, and 1776 and so far Ive heard the best about the 1914. Good power and cost-reliability ratio so to speak. I havnt seen a build list or any required and optional parts for the build. I would like to explore this topic a bit more and get the input of seasoned vets. I am in automotive shop at school and the instructor was a aircooled VW mechanic before he was a teacher so I have access to help. I am pretty advanced in automotive reapir. Ive rebuilt 2 honda engines ground up and done full collision repair on another civic but aircooled is totally different. Ive had the engine out of the car, stripped, and put back in 2 times now and am a quick learner (on topics I like). Any input or recommendations and past build lists are appreciated and encouraged!
Thanks ~Hunter
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67jason
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

can you do your own machine work and head work?

whats is your total realistic budget?
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HunterTheBusHunter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

I can not do my own machine work. That is one thing I knew for sure I would have to source out. I am not sure what my budget is because im not sure what to expect. Ive seen numbers from $1600 all the way to $7000 and havnt found a constant. Id like it to be around $2000 (below if possible) but dont necessarily cut cornes to save money. I only want to do this once until I go bigger. Id like to get input on what people have spent before on a 1914 and what I should be looking at realisticly budget wise.
Thanks ~Hunter
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67jason
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

for under $2000 you might be able to pull off a basic no frills 1915. stock heads, engle 100 dual kads and header.

it really depends on what you have to work with and what you need to buy. it is not uncommon for a case to need $500-800 or more worth of machine work just to make it serviceable for a hi-po build. then heads. you'll be in several hundred in a valve job and basic port job on your stock heads. balancing everything costs to - you will want a counter weighted crank, good pully, flywheel PP/Clutch all balanced together. a good exhaust will be at least $150, double that or more if you want heat. then you'll be looking at a couple hundred for used carbs, and another few hundred to get them properly rebuilt. then there are all the misc costs, bearings, case studs, assembly lube, oil, full flow parts, gaskets, hardware etc. it is possible for under $2k, but i feel a more realistic budget is in the $3-3500 range. less compromises will be made and you'll get more of what you want.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

67jason wrote:
for under $2000 you might be able to pull off a basic no frills 1915. stock heads, engle 100 dual kads and header.

it really depends on what you have to work with and what you need to buy. it is not uncommon for a case to need $500-800 or more worth of machine work just to make it serviceable for a hi-po build. then heads. you'll be in several hundred in a valve job and basic port job on your stock heads. balancing everything costs to - you will want a counter weighted crank, good pully, flywheel PP/Clutch all balanced together. a good exhaust will be at least $150, double that or more if you want heat. then you'll be looking at a couple hundred for used carbs, and another few hundred to get them properly rebuilt. then there are all the misc costs, bearings, case studs, assembly lube, oil, full flow parts, gaskets, hardware etc. it is possible for under $2k, but i feel a more realistic budget is in the $3-3500 range. less compromises will be made and you'll get more of what you want.



Hunter, good on you for asking, in my experience over 25 years of VWs - street, racing in sprint, hill-climbs and drags, the 1916 is the most fuss-free way to good grunt - this capacity on a standard stroke makes the most of the standard VW heads/breathing etc. You don't need any porting. valve jobs, doo-hickies or 'pro' anything or anyone... except a good balancer and machinist

Here's my 'no frills' 1916... stock internals (except the obvious) but it has a cam more like an Engel 110:

https://www.facebook.com/GTBeetles/videos/vb.520109091374496/584771108241627/?type=3&theater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Yes it is possible! When I was 16 I bought a turn key 1835, I should have built a 1914 myself. You are on the right track. At 16 you should have very few real expenses and should be able to raise the extra couple thousand quick to build the motor right from the start.


The best advice I can give you is DON'T BUY A GEX TURN KEY MOTOR. Big mistake and a huge waste of a 16 year old's money.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

My 1915 long block was assembled for 2k. Reused cam @ lifters, push rods, rockers, and case. Cheap 40x35 heads, ccw crank, and lite flywheel. Came with a build sheet. Have since added cm push rods, bolt on rocker shafts, and single springs W/dampeners. Now has low oil pressure from being rear ended and awaiting dis-assembly.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

I priced out a cheap 1915 that I would build and came to around $2700 in parts and machine work. I used prices available from Brothers Machine, Mofoco, CIP and CB and this does not include accessories, tin, fuel delivery, ignition, misc hardware etc

Align bore $75
Thrust cut $75
Open for 94s $80
Case Savers $75
Full flow $75
Rebuilt stock heads/Valve Job - $220
Open heads for 94’s $40
Engine balancing $120
Mild Port work -$150 - $250
Rockers $150
1915 engine kit $694 (from CIP - china p&c's china ccw crank, cam lifters, bearings etc - all internals plus gasket kit, pushrod tubes etc)
Ready to run Kads $475
Header muffler $150 (with HE +$299)
Clutch - $100
Sump - $100
Oil lines, fittings $75-150
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

to the OP take a look at this kit:

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1181

shop around and copy it for cheaper or buy the good kit outright. you want a solid motor, not a slapped together piece of junk right? its gonna cost.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

When I was still in high school, I knew a guy who bought a brand new corvette by mowing lawns. Just saying a 16 year old's budget will be determined by how industrious they are...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great info! I was looking at the kits that Scat VW sells, anyone had experience with them? From Scat I could get a full 2027 kit 78mm stroke 90.5mm pistons with case heads and everything but carbs tins ignition ect for $2200 or I could get a 1915 kit with no case or heads for $600. Let me know what you guys think of these kits and ill do some more shopping around!
http://www.scatvw.com/master/engine_kits/
Thanks ~Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Keep in mind, if you get machine work done, there are ways to get that cost to come down. Getting to know your machinist is a good way, and don't underestimate the power of showing up with doughnuts and coffee when you bring your parts in.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

vectorsprint wrote:
Keep in mind, if you get machine work done, there are ways to get that cost to come down. Getting to know your machinist is a good way, and don't underestimate the power of showing up with doughnuts and coffee when you bring your parts in.


Very good advice might I suggest you shop around, here for instance align bore cost 60 dollars and that includes thrust cut. Also balance lower end here less than 100.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

That Scat kit looks OK. I would get the forged crank for the extra $100.

For heads I would watch the Revmaster website. Once in a while they have a sale and will open up their heads to your specs (94mm and what ever size combustion chamber you want to get your compression ratio set.) for $199 a head. $400 for a brand new set of quality heads is pretty good.

They flow REALLY well right out of the box about as good as some mild CNC heads from others. They are also very high quality castings with very good cooling fins and passages. By the time you pay to have your heads rebuilt, machined for bigger cylinders and a mild fluff and buff port job you would be at the cost of these new heads.

brad
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Very good advice might I suggest you shop around, here for instance align bore cost 60 dollars and that includes thrust cut. Also balance lower end here less than 100.

May I ask where "here" is? Do you work at or live near a local machine shop or do you mean in the classifieds? I will watch Revmaster for a sale but regular the heads are pretty pricy. On regard of the two scat kits, would the better deal be the kit with or without case and heads? Would it be better to run the machined VW case or the new machined aluminum case and heads? Thanks for all the great info!
Thanks ~Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Here is dead center of U.S. Oklahoma. Yes this a fly over state, just shy of four million total population. However there are a few reputable shops and individuals that post here. Try calling Eric at the Bughaus. From your original post you gave a budget of 2k a new case will easily eat half of that and new heads several hundred more. Look for a good used case and heads, better yet look for a good used compete engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Everyone lives near a good machine shop. Go to local car shows, meets and such, doesn't have to be VW specific, ask the people there what shops they recommend. You'll probably get a bunch of people recommending one, then pay them a visit. And I agree with Zundfolge1432, look for a good used engine. The beetle engine, stock, was really understressed and the stock parts are quite robust. You can make a mildly sporty street engine out of a stock motor without issue if the starting point isn't a boat anchor.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

Their 40x35.5 single spring heads will do for a mild engine with a mild cam. I'm using these on a 1904 with an Engle 110. They are only $229ea regular price. You don't need their CNC stuff with your budget. I've never seen the flow numbers for a Scat head so can't comment. I only suggested the RM heads because of their relatively good performance out of the box with no need for extra work.

Aluminum cases are better for a real HP build, if your case is in good shape save your money and use it. The cost of a new case can be spent on things like carbs exhaust and stronger internal parts.

brad
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

HunterTheBusHunter wrote:
Thanks for all the great info! I was looking at the kits that Scat VW sells, anyone had experience with them? From Scat I could get a full 2027 kit 78mm stroke 90.5mm pistons with case heads and everything but carbs tins ignition ect for $2200 or I could get a 1915 kit with no case or heads for $600. Let me know what you guys think of these kits and ill do some more shopping around!
http://www.scatvw.com/master/engine_kits/
Thanks ~Hunter


$600 v $2200.. end of discussion! LOL

the last two SCAT cranks I saw in daily driver duties were dead by 30,000km. They were being used in tourist trikes - not sunny Sunday cruisers - so it hurt the owners business. Both were in the 'turn-key 000-mile' motors you see in the magazines...

The beauty of a street 1916 is you get to keep ALL the good VW parts:
Stock crank (balance) stock flywheel (balance) stock rockers stock DP heads (machine) stock case (machine) stock rods (balance)... get the idea?

With twin Kadrons, extractors and a 009 that's what's in my motor linked above
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Is a solid 1914 possible on a 16 y/o budget? Reply with quote

I know of an abandoned beetle next to a swimming hole I go to so Im going to try and track down the property owner and see if I can strip it down to the body. Ill take the engine for the builder. If I end up building this engine is it reccomended that I build a bit tougher transaxle to go along with it? Higher ratios, stronger gears ect? If I get that abandoned beetle I may experiment with the transaxle out of it, or should I not bother and sell it to get better engine parts? I know the stock transaxle can only take so much and Im not sure what that number is. Let me know!
Thanks ~Hunter
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