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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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I have a whole spool of #0 wire for just this sort of thing, but I'm thinking of moving the mountain to Mohammad and relocating the battery back to a custom cubby above the trans, or into the engine compartment itself. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
I have a whole spool of #0 wire for just this sort of thing, but I'm thinking of moving the mountain to Mohammad and relocating the battery back to a custom cubby above the trans, or into the engine compartment itself. |
Yep, if I had a 2WD I'd be building Libby's add-a-cubby above the trans for sure, lots of wasted space in there... (18.6 gallons, to be exact ) _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Took the van out for a ride to work tonight, sort of a second maiden voyage after the engine work and front end rebuild. Feels great, and even the alignment is fairly correct, for having just marked the radius rods with the old setting... and for the camber I just measured how many ratchet clicks of adjustment I had, and set it smack in the middle.
The engine smokes quite a bit more now, for some reason, not sure if it's still burning off the residual, we'll see in a few days. The muffler is soaked with oil, it's gobbing out oil/insulation phlegm balls. Yummy.
The Mann oil separator seems to be working, draining back to the inlet I added to the turbo drain. Yes, the check valve is in place, and yes, I know why it needs to be there, because I tried to run it without If that outflow hose had been connected to the motor intake it would have run away like a raped ape. As it was 30 seconds of idling resulted in a 3 quart oil siphon, pushed the oil up a tube about 4 feet long and vertical, then into the pillar. This thing must create one hell of a venturi inside it. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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jimeg Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 510 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Syncroincity wrote: |
Took the van out for a ride to work tonight, sort of a second maiden voyage after the engine work and front end rebuild. Feels great, and even the alignment is fairly correct, for having just marked the radius rods with the old setting... and for the camber I just measured how many ratchet clicks of adjustment I had, and set it smack in the middle.
The engine smokes quite a bit more now, for some reason, not sure if it's still burning off the residual, we'll see in a few days. The muffler is soaked with oil, it's gobbing out oil/insulation phlegm balls. Yummy.
The Mann oil separator seems to be working, draining back to the inlet I added to the turbo drain. Yes, the check valve is in place, and yes, I know why it needs to be there, because I tried to run it without If that outflow hose had been connected to the motor intake it would have run away like a raped ape. As it was 30 seconds of idling resulted in a 3 quart oil siphon, pushed the oil up a tube about 4 feet long and vertical, then into the pillar. This thing must create one hell of a venturi inside it. |
Can you explain this "running away" phenom? What does it mean, what is causing it and how is it prevented? _________________ 1986 Root Beer Syncro Tin Top....so many plans.
Here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578490 |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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jimeg wrote: |
Can you explain this "running away" phenom? What does it mean, what is causing it and how is it prevented? |
Diesel runaway occurs when engine oil (or anything flammable, really) gets into the air intake system, and the engine burns it for fuel. It's not controlled by the injection pump, so the engine immediately goes to full power and screaming RPMs if it's not in gear. Karl Mullendore recently experienced this, using the same oil separator. THis will kill your engine quick-like.
Preventing it boils down to avoiding any uncontrolled oil or fuel entering the intake system... and I've been having big oil control problems since rebuild. I experienced some mild runaway on the highway when I was using a simple catch can, and it filled up and started feeding the engine. I then removed the hose from the can that went to the intake.
I will reattach the hose to the intake down the line when the engine breaks in better and stops pushing so much oil out, but for now the engine takes precedence over keeping the fumes in. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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jimeg Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 510 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Syncroincity wrote: |
jimeg wrote: |
Can you explain this "running away" phenom? What does it mean, what is causing it and how is it prevented? |
Diesel runaway occurs when engine oil (or anything flammable, really) gets into the air intake system, and the engine burns it for fuel. It's not controlled by the injection pump, so the engine immediately goes to full power and screaming RPMs if it's not in gear. Karl Mullendore recently experienced this, using the same oil separator. THis will kill your engine quick-like.
Preventing it boils down to avoiding any uncontrolled oil or fuel entering the intake system... and I've been having big oil control problems since rebuild. I experienced some mild runaway on the highway when I was using a simple catch can, and it filled up and started feeding the engine. I then removed the hose from the can that went to the intake.
I will reattach the hose to the intake down the line when the engine breaks in better and stops pushing so much oil out, but for now the engine takes precedence over keeping the fumes in. |
How is the oil getting into the intake then? _________________ 1986 Root Beer Syncro Tin Top....so many plans.
Here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578490
Last edited by jimeg on Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Syncroincity wrote: |
Took the van out for a ride to work tonight, sort of a second maiden voyage after the engine work and front end rebuild. Feels great, ... |
Youve done such a fine job.
Hope the rings seat soon. I'd be tempted to put a teaspoon of bon-ami in the intake _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Gizmoman wrote: |
Youve done such a fine job.
Hope the rings seat soon. I'd be tempted to put a teaspoon of bon-ami in the intake |
Thanks! It's been a trial, for sure... but it's only got about 350 miles on it, and it's improving pretty rapidly.
jimeg wrote: |
How is the oil getting into the intake then? |
In my case, it was being pushed out by ring blowby, into a catch can. When that filled up (rather rapidly) it traveled down the tube I had hooked to the intake to draw off crankcase fumes.
In the Mann Oil Separator incident, the Mann has a drain that sends the oil back to the engine, but you need to have a one-way check valve in that line, or else the Mann actually vacuums up the oil backwards from the drain. Same thing, can fills up, and if you have a connection to the intake, away she goes. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Syncroincity wrote: |
In the Mann Oil Separator incident, the Mann has a drain that sends the oil back to the engine, but you need to have a one-way check valve in that line, or else the Mann actually vacuums up the oil backwards from the drain. Same thing, can fills up, and if you have a connection to the intake, away she goes. |
Thanks Mr. This is very helpful info. I may build one for my "new" engine as well and will definitely add a check. _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. In the past on a modified Mercedes build, I used a 240D oil separator can tapped into the turbo oil return line to the pan. I wanted to keep oil from fouling the intercooler. I'm having a hard time understanding how these Mann separators function, such that they would allow this backflow action. The Mann separator does drain back into the pan, right? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Well, from what I've read about blow-by, it can build serious pressure in a diesel crankcase, that is if the rings are either shot, or not fully seated yet.
It's designed to produce at least 400 Psi and if that squirts past rings, it could certainly push some oil.
I think if the rings are seated and things are in spec, it's not too much of an issue and the oil will drain (back in) as it should. Regardless, the system cannot be closed entirely as there will always be blow-by, the can is supposed to keep the oil in and only let off the pressure air.
(IMHO).
I will have a similar dilemma with my rebuild and a very high requirement to not allow oil into my WAIC intake. Still not sure which way to go yet but whatever I decide, I will make sure the oil cannot flow into the intake. _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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So is the Mann system a "catch can", or is it just a chamber which allows crankcase gases to pass through while ejecting oil? On the 240D system I described before, the chamber had a tapered bottom, so oil was immediately channeled to flow back to the oil pan.
_________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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jimeg Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 510 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Really have enjoyed reading your thread. Thanks for the details. It's been educational, as I embark on my own AAZ conversion(a very lite version of what you are doing). Do you have a pic of your turbo oil drain line? I'm trying to determine if mine is the "stock Vanagon turbo diesel" drain line that you,describe acquiring for your engine. This is what you used, correct? Where can I get one if mine is not?
Here is what is on my engine -
_________________ 1986 Root Beer Syncro Tin Top....so many plans.
Here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578490 |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
So is the Mann system a "catch can", or is it just a chamber which allows crankcase gases to pass through while ejecting oil? On the 240D system I described before, the chamber had a tapered bottom, so oil was immediately channeled to flow back to the oil pan.
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It's a cyclonic chamber with a small filter in it that captures the oil mist, which travels to the bottom, and out the nipple n the bottom. It actually looks just like the MB unit, except with larger air ports. I was shocked how much venturi suction was created by the airflow... _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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jimeg wrote: |
Really have enjoyed reading your thread. Thanks for the details. It's been educational, as I embark on my own AAZ conversion(a very lite version of what you are doing). Do you have a pic of your turbo oil drain line? I'm trying to determine if mine is the "stock Vanagon turbo diesel" drain line that you,describe acquiring for your engine. This is what you used, correct? Where can I get one if mine is not?
Here is what is on my engine -
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That drain is original to the AAZ motor, going to the block. TD Vanagons have a tapped oil drain inlet on the cast aluminum oil pan. Using the AAZ or a TDI motor requires an extension hose because of the taller block... I got one from Brickwerks in the UK.
I think your motor is not tilted over quie as much as the OEM mounting system, the AAZ drain should be fine. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my drain line setup. I cut the flared end off of a large steel brakeline and welded it into a hole in the hard drain line section. The Mann separator drains to this via a hose I found in the pile... I think it's Subaru. The check valve is spliced into this hose.
The drain coming off the turbo is an OEM TD Vanagon pipe, and the SS braid extension hose is from Brickwerks in the UK, required because of the extra height of the AA block.
_________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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jimeg Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 510 Location: PNW
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johnnygreenham Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2013 Posts: 456 Location: Upper Jay NY
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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jerry, was giving it a little thought about why you have so much suction with your oil separator. In theory the oil separator doesn't create suction up the drain port otherwise how would it work? So the suction must be coming from something else in the system. Where about on the intake are you plumbing the gasses back into the system. Could the turbo be winding up and causing a large vacuum if you plumbed pre turbo. Post turbo could also cause a draw but not as server I wouldn't have thought. _________________ 1982 Diesel 1.9TD AAZ |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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It's not connected to the intake at all... I learned that lesson already. I ran the air out line up into the left pillar up to where the snorkel intake is (eye-level), just to attempt to have the crankcase gasses pulled into the intake. THe oil got vacuumed up by the separator, and pushed vertically up that line over 3 feet and spewed into the pillar. THis was at idle, 30 seconds or less, I killed it when I head the gurgling and saw oil pouring out the bottom of the van. That was how I came to the decision that the check valve was a good thing. Had that line been connected to the intake hose, the engine would have run away and ripped itself to shreds.
I can only speculate, but my theory is that the Mann creates a venturi when subjected to high volumes of blow-by gas, and the low pressure inside pulls oil up from the drain line.
That said... I've been having a creeping suspicion that the turbo drain might be backing up as well. The motor is burning oil now, lots of white smoke on throttle-up when cold, steady grey-white smoke at idle even after hot. Evidence of oil in the intake. The turbo is pushing oil into the cold side, the seal is shot. Hard to tell if the replacement of the valve stem seals was effective, it's exhibiting the same smoke as before. Maybe the turbo's always been leaking... or it was marginal and running it canted too much put it over the edge. Wouldn't surprise me. One thing at a time, for now; I'm going to put a new VNT-15 in as a replacement, I've asked Mr. Libby to fab an adapter for me. In the meantime I'm fogging for mosquitos every cold start.
To address the separator oil, I've ordered a small fuel pump and a timer & relay board to run the pump at intervals while the engine is on, to force the oil past the check valve and back to the sump. Thanks to JohnnyGreenham for bouncing some ideas around for that.
This is starting to get ridiculous.
Well past 500 miles now, the rings are still letting a lot of air by them, something's not right. I added some Redline break-in additive to the oil, let's see if that has any effect. I honed the cylinders, and the rings were new Goetze std size, not chrome as far as I know. _________________ '86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT
Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight= |
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