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AAZ Turbodiesel swap into '86 Vanagon Syncro
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a very good plan - hard to beat fast spool
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about your Garrett T2 but I don't believe the K-14 had much of an oil seal between the the bearings (oil) and the compressor. Obviously there's excellent and not so excellent ways to insure the oil drains properly and I'm confident you've done your best.

My point is, there are turbos made to run below 10-12 and turbos made to run at 30. Unless your upgrade of the T2 addresses sealing the oil at higher pressures, it may be moot.

Wish I had a pile of VNT's to mess with. I am very happy with the Holset but I still think a VNT is the ideal solution. All the effort it took to re-do the manifold and build a new pot mount and linkage to make the rotated scrolls/gate work, I could have done the VNT
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jerry. Not sure what internal diameter your turbo drain line is, but remember I had that crazy oil drama coming out of my exhaust. That was all due to fitting restrictions in my drain line. I was surprised how large I had to go to give sufficient drainage. Maybe be worth double checking your oil return set up. If it is slightly inadequate then it may be the cause of some smoking.
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
Hi Jerry. Not sure what internal diameter your turbo drain line is, but remember I had that crazy oil drama coming out of my exhaust. That was all due to fitting restrictions in my drain line. I was surprised how large I had to go to give sufficient drainage. Maybe be worth double checking your oil return set up. If it is slightly inadequate then it may be the cause of some smoking.


Yeah, I think you're right. I took the turbo to the Scroll shop, and the guy turned me down flat; "Nothing wrong with this turbo. If you put a good service kit into it, it will last you another 75K, balanced or not. These things are built like tanks" then went on to suggest either drain restriction or a boost leak in the intake drawing oil out.
I noticed this time there was no oil in the exhaust side, just the compressor side was pushing oil. So it looks like time to re-visit the drain.
I think the pump pushing oil out of the Mann separator and into the drain line is not helping the situation, I'll drill a hole in my block bung and return that oil to the original AAZ drain port. I'm also suspicious that it's crankcase pressure obstructing good drainage. I'm buying a package of cleanser to sprinkle into the intake this week... I have had it with blow-by. The back of the van looks like a Greek diner's fry grill after the lunch rush.

No quick options for a hybrid, since it's not an off-the-shelf Garrett model it would require extensive research and experimentation to find suitable parts.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the drain was my issue as well. I made several attempts to remedy it with no luck. I doubt theres anything wrong with my K-14 - just needs a better drain. Another option would be to restrict the amount of oil (I've read of it being done) but that's a scary bit of stuff.

Sorry to hear about your blow-by. Mine was somewhat heavy at first but seems to have settled down quite a bit. I ran dino for the 1st 500 miles and switched to synthetic - too soon. Went back to dino and drove it hard. Seems to be much better now.

I have the Greek fry kitchen syndrome as well Very Happy but mine if from a tiny leak from the valve cover. Just about done with the whole project to be honest.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amount of oil to journal bearing turbos should *not* be restricted.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
The amount of oil to journal bearing turbos should *not* be restricted.

Nice to know. I wasn't advocating it, just tossing out ideas (apparently not all good ones)
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem. I just don't want to see anyone grenade their turbo trying to fix a drainage issue.
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a chat with a couple of Garretts technicians. They swore to me that if no crazy excessive crankcase pressure then do not restrict. They made it very clear that restricting a turbo should be the very last resort when every single other possible issue has been examine and fixed.

Jerry. I can't stress enough how susprised I was how big I went with my drain line. I went as big as I could possibly think off. The largest hydarulic fitting I could find that would possible fit and I still had to drill them all out. I drilled all the fitting to as large as the sump plug hole would let me so that would be the smallest oroffice. Go big big and BIGGER. It can't hurt anything going too big. This is your issue I'm sure. I was driving my engine as hard as I could, to seat the rings, up and down hills, and all over the place for 1500 miles with not a drop leaking out of turbo seals.

Good luck! You will have this sorted soon I'm sure.
Johnny
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ I agree - no such thing as a turbo drain line that's too big. The fitting the PO had tig welded to the pan used a #6 AN fitting and a piece of aluminum tube. Final ID was less than 0.32"! Here is the culprit
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Here is my final attempt
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Hose is 0.63 ID. There is no pressure on this hose so wire braid and hydraulic fittings are not required. Just high quality high temp oil proof hose will suffice. Make sure it has absolutely no "droop" - must run continuously down hill.

Squeeze clamps shown in above photos were changed to SS full circle clamps. This may have fixed my K-14 "turbo oil in intake" issue but I needed more volume/boost so went with the Holset at the same time as the hose switch.
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Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I think the rebuild was OK after all, so it's just down to a slow drain. Think

I'm also of the conviction that the crankcase overpressure is contributing to the condition in a big way, preventing the oil exiting the turbo in a timely manner.

I tried the Bon Ami Break-in.

I loaded a small baby-powder bottle with Bon-Ami and puffed it into the open intake at a high idle. At one point I heard it distinctly slow down a bit as the powder grabbed the rings. Ultimately, however, I don't think it worked, or at least not enough, there still seems to be a lot of blow-by. I'm going to give it another shot later... you have to change the oil when you do this.

If this fails... Confused I'm starting to think I have an out-of-round cylinder.


Right now I'm dealing with a boost hose that won't stay put; the hose from turbo outlet to I/C inlet will not stay in place; no matter how tight the clamp is it creeps off the chargecooler inlet and I lose all boost pressure. The oil in the inlet is not helping at all. I'm going to re-do the I/C setup with a different chargecooler, one that blows through the long side of the core, rather than through the ends. This will give me more room to have straight sections of hose attach to the ends. As it sits now, the cooler body is so long that I had to cut the hoses too close to the bend radius of the hose, and there's not enough meat on the bottom of the hose to clamp securely to the cooler flanges. Embarassed Another expensive lesson.

This will buy me 4 inches of extra room for hose;


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many miles are on you rebuilt engine? Did you measure the crank case pressure at the dipstick tube? My monster AAZ took about 10000km to seat and stop making excessive blow-by. I'm running a Kennedy plate and a VNT17-22, 14psi boost, no oil drain issues at all. 5w50 synthetic oil now. Break in on 15w40 Rottella T.
Jeff
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1500 miles to date, approx.

Oh, and the odometer gave up last week. NEVER reset while moving. Evil or Very Mad
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not even close to being seated... Patience Grasshopper...
Jeff
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copy that, Master. Pray Very Happy

I'll concentrate on enlarging the drain, the motor is still sipping it's own oil. It's kind of nice on the highway, unintentional cruise control, but it's a pain in the sack in traffic; rev the motor more that 2K and it starts to run away so I have to dump the clutch in a higher gear.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed update. I gotta hand it to you for the Bob-Ami feed - balls-ey!
So your saying the crankcase pressure is high due to either non-seated rings or an oval barrel? That sucks (or blows). I know you have put a lot of thought into you crankcase vent but if I were in your shoes, I'd put the biggest hose possible on it and vent to a bottle. Here's my set-up and it seems to be working OK.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The can has been stuffed with stainless steel pot scrubbers (there's a port off the bottom side that goes into the valve cover grommet). The hose along the valve cover simply goes to a clear plastic bottle I have hanging off something with mechanics wire. I had to add a hose clamp to the grommet to keep it from leaking. Seems to work well. After about a 300 mile hard run, I had about 1/8 of oil in the one pint bottle (maybe an ounce or two).

It does seem that money just keeps flowing into these things if you have high expectations of power and reliability. I just bought a new 2 X 7 X 26" heat exchanger to mount up front. The small under body one I have now just can't keep up. Over time heat soak creeps in and high EGTs can be reached easily.

It seems odd that your EGT numbers stay so low compared to mine but then our fueling may be way different. I have a 1.6 IP touched by Giles and while there's no smoke I can see, I believe it's fueling rather heavy.

You've already purchased a new IC but a trick I have used to keep hoses (and motorcycle grips) to stay put is to paint the surface with enamel spray paint, slide the hose on and then clamp it.

*EDIT* Re-read after posting - My crankcase is not vented back to the intake. It sounds as though yours is Shocked That is pretty crappy stuff your feeding it. I dump mine in my oil change jug.
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Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if I have posted this or not. If so excuse the repost. The engine has 4 oil returns to the block from the head. When the engine is layed over at 50 degrees, you loose 2 of them until the oil level is high enough to flow into them. When the oil level is that high in the head, the lower valve cover gasket is also on the edge of being submerged. The 1.6 had solid lifters and there was a reduced amount of oil in the cylinder head compared to the hydraulic lifter head.

So, running down the highway, the cylinder head is filling with oil and the breather design was just not suited for this layover of the engine. I don't know that you need so much as to let it breath to the atmosphere, but you could consider an oil breather separator that could return the oil back into the block and vent the vapors back into the intake. I apologize if I have already posted this and it is only a theory I came up with installing a used Tiico engine into my latest vanagon. I was running the oil pump off the intermediate shaft with a drill. I was surprised at how much oil was actually accumulating in the head even with the engine not running.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While this is not my thread, I have a lot of respect for the OP and you as well rsxsr.
I also recall your perspective on how much oil is under the valve cover on a 50 degree AAZ (I believe you were assisting with my valve cover leak issue).

Would you guess that there's so much oil that the current vent on the valve cover is "under" the oil level? Not trying to derail Syncroincity's post by any means. I figure the info may help him as well.

The "SS scrubbers in a can"concept is an attempt to catch the oil and return it if possible - and it seems to work well. Whatever gets past it goes to the bottle I mentioned earlier.

When I sliced my stock intake in two to make the modified one, I was amazed at the crud inside (after rigorous cleaning). The thought of running that back into the engine made me wince. Besides, with the current setup, it can't "run away" and the intake will stay clean for a long while.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of the number of miles on the rings or whether or not it is broken in, it should never pass enough oil to run away, ever. There's definitely more going on than just the rings not being seated yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been monitoring these issues and trying to imagine what's going on. I have no experience building turbo engines, so I can't speak from experience. But, I've built over a dozen NA VW diesels before, and not one of them ever took longer than 300 miles to fully seat the rings and settle into a normal state of crankcase breathing. A run-on state is pretty serious, and I'd be more inclined to suspect something with the turbo oil feed/drain or internal cartridge issue.
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