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The importance of choosing the correct oil weight.
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Almost Alive
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwonnos wrote:
I choose the weight of oil based on what the average outside temps are going to be while operating. If I'm in the desert in May and its 90-100 I run 20W-50. If its Jan. and its a high of 50 and low of 30s, I run 10w-30.

To say a vw only needs 20W-50 if its wore out is B.S.

Why is this even a debate? Read any automobile owners manual and the weight of oil you should be using is relative to the outside temperatures during operation.


Okay. Despite the posts after yours, I'll humor you. Why would you choose those oil weights and why would you use multi-grade oil yet still switch different oils for the ambient temperatures?

Furthermore, owners manuals state what to use in an engine based upon its tolerances. Tight tolerances = lighter oil. Now this is a blanket statement by the automobile manufactures. It is commonly the best oil to use in all of that type of engine though tolerances can be different. Tolerances can be VERY different. Proof? There are 9 different sized cam gears that VW used because of different case tolerances.
That being said, just because a blanket statement is made about all VW engines does not mean it can't be improved upon. Not only that but if you have replaced any part on the inside of your engine ever, you could have changed a tolerance as well. There is no "perfect" inside of an engine. Very VERY close, sure. But not perfect. Just so you understand, as little as one or two thousandths difference in a bearing could cause you to need a different grade oil. I shouldn't say need, its more like "want".
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Why is this even a debate? Read any automobile owners manual and the weight of oil you should be using is relative to the outside temperatures during operation.

Not true. Most auto makers recommend only one viscosity for all conditions. That's because most modern cars' engines have the ability to run at exactly the same oil temp regardless of what the weather is. IOW, they run the same oil temp in AZ in the summer as they do in ND in the winter.

Better than using the weather report to determine your viscosity is to measure your engine's actual oil temp.


I thought the same thing at first, too. In fact, I looked up my car's owner manual just to provide evidence against vwonnos' argument... but to my surprise it does actually mention climatic conditions. However, I think it has more to do with the cold-starting temperature, making sure the oil isn't too thick on engine start-up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost Alive wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
I choose the weight of oil based on what the average outside temps are going to be while operating. If I'm in the desert in May and its 90-100 I run 20W-50. If its Jan. and its a high of 50 and low of 30s, I run 10w-30.

To say a vw only needs 20W-50 if its wore out is B.S.

Why is this even a debate? Read any automobile owners manual and the weight of oil you should be using is relative to the outside temperatures during operation.


Okay. Despite the posts after yours, I'll humor you. Why would you choose those oil weights and why would you use multi-grade oil yet still switch different oils for the ambient temperatures?

Furthermore, owners manuals state what to use in an engine based upon its tolerances. Tight tolerances = lighter oil. Now this is a blanket statement by the automobile manufactures. It is commonly the best oil to use in all of that type of engine though tolerances can be different. Tolerances can be VERY different. Proof? There are 9 different sized cam gears that VW used because of different case tolerances.
That being said, just because a blanket statement is made about all VW engines does not mean it can't be improved upon. Not only that but if you have replaced any part on the inside of your engine ever, you could have changed a tolerance as well. There is no "perfect" inside of an engine. Very VERY close, sure. But not perfect. Just so you understand, as little as one or two thousandths difference in a bearing could cause you to need a different grade oil. I shouldn't say need, its more like "want".


Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer. Plus I run in the desert in a turboed 2332 buggy. I switch to 20W-50 in the summer because I don't want 30W oil when its 100 degrees outside. I also don't want to run 50W in the winter when the temps never get above 60* outside. The purpose behind a multi-grade oil is simply how it flows at a given temperature. Your bearing tolerances may affect what oil you select but in extreme temperature differences a multi-grade is a must. Our vw's are air cooled and the climate is very important when we select what grade oil to run.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the "owners manual" is only close to correct if you have a near stock engine. Change the oil pump, and those "recommendations" are chit. Oh, also if you remove the flaps, thermostat, etc etc.

Most are monkey see, monkey do. They put the oil in that their friends say they should use, or what they read on the Interwebz.

They SHOULD put a pressure and temp gauge on the engine, and find out what the engine wants. *-30 is a great place to start, if you have 10psi/1k then it's thick enough, you are wasting money by using *-40 or *-50.

If you have over 45psi at cruise your oil cooler is not being used, because of the design of the VW oiling system. Either slow down or use a thinner oil, to get under 45psi cruise pressure, and then the cooler will be functional.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
the "owners manual" is only close to correct if you have a near stock engine. Change the oil pump, and those "recommendations" are chit. Oh, also if you remove the flaps, thermostat, etc etc.

Most are monkey see, monkey do. They put the oil in that their friends say they should use, or what they read on the Interwebz.

They SHOULD put a pressure and temp gauge on the engine, and find out what the engine wants. *-30 is a great place to start, if you have 10psi/1k then it's thick enough, you are wasting money by using *-40 or *-50.

If you have over 45psi at cruise your oil cooler is not being used, because of the design of the VW oiling system. Either slow down or use a thinner oil, to get under 45psi cruise pressure, and then the cooler will be functional.


I agree. I have both gauges and I run the oil I need based on the climate. The gauges will tell me if its summer or winter if I don't switch my grade of oil. My motor is also full flowed, stock cooler, external cooler and remote filtered. Any restriction will alter your oil pressure as well. I've seen my oil pressure actualy drop by switching from Castrol 10W-30 and a Fram oil filter to 20W-50 and a K&N oil filter. Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwonnos wrote:
Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer.

That's not hard to find.
I've seen 20W-60 oil. If you knew where to get that, would you use it?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer.

That's not hard to find.
I've seen 20W-60 oil. If you knew where to get that, would you use it?


If your oil temps were getting above 240 would you run 10W-30?

I would use 20W-60 over 10W-30 if the climatic and driving conditions called for it.

The vw engine is used in many different types of vehicles and equipment.

Would a Vw powered Zamboni and a Class 5-1600 Baja be suggested to run the same grade oil even if their bearing tolerances were the same? My answer would be, it depends on the climate. Wink

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm just saying the climate should be a factor in determining your grade of oil.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwonnos wrote:
Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer.

That's not hard to find.
I've seen 20W-60 oil. If you knew where to get that, would you use it?


If your oil temps were getting above 240 would you run 10W-30?


My oil temps don't get that high. If you have an overheating problem, don't try to mask it with thicker oil. If your oil temp is 240º F with 10W-30, it will be higher with 20W-50 as the thicker oil raises the oil pressure, causing the stock oil cooler to be bypassed.

vwonnos wrote:

Would a Vw powered Zamboni and a Class 5-1600 Baja be suggested to run the same grade oil even if their bearing tolerances were the same? My answer would be, it depends on the climate.
While climate does affect the oil temp, picking the oil based solely on the weather isn't very smart. Pick your oil based on what the oil temp is.
If your 5-1600 runs 210ºF with 10W-30 on a triple digit day, why would you change anything?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer.

That's not hard to find.
I've seen 20W-60 oil. If you knew where to get that, would you use it?


If your oil temps were getting above 240 would you run 10W-30?


My oil temps don't get that high. If you have an overheating problem, don't try to mask it with thicker oil. If your oil temp is 240º F with 10W-30, it will be higher with 20W-50 as the thicker oil raises the oil pressure, causing the stock oil cooler to be bypassed.

vwonnos wrote:

Would a Vw powered Zamboni and a Class 5-1600 Baja be suggested to run the same grade oil even if their bearing tolerances were the same? My answer would be, it depends on the climate.
While climate does affect the oil temp, picking the oil based solely on the weather isn't very smart. Pick your oil based on what the oil temp is.
If your 5-1600 runs 210ºF with 10W-30 on a triple digit day, why would you change anything?


I wouldn't, but it doesn't.

At start up your oil is at ambient temperature. The lowest number is based 100% on climate. To choose which grade oil based on avg. operating temp. we would all be running straight weight oil and thats not very smart.
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Almost Alive
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwonnos wrote:
Bruce wrote:
vwonnos wrote:
Well if I could find 10W-50 I would run it in the summer.

That's not hard to find.
I've seen 20W-60 oil. If you knew where to get that, would you use it?

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm just saying the climate should be a factor in determining your grade of oil.


Though I DO agree with you, I do not think the weather should be your deciding factor on oil weight. Your temps and oil pressure should be taken care of first and if you've got some wiggle room with those, then you could take the seasons into consideration. Once you've established a good base line, you may want to change with the seasons depending on how quickly your engine warms up in the winter. I would suggest flaps if you aren't already using them. This will make your warm up time quicker and the damage done by cold start ups less. You also might want to consider one of the oil pump covers with relieve valves in it if you are full flow if you are using a thicker oil.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air cooled newb here...

'72 Std 1600 DP
Shitty chrome fan shroud and top tins, no other tins yet
External oil cooler mounted on the outside of the hood
External oil filter kit with K&N
Louvered hood (not solid)

Last week I went to a local ACVW mechanic whom I trust and watched him/assisted with the oil change so I could learn how to do it right...and boy am I glad I did. I felt like a dumbass but I learned a lot. Anywho...he said, and I quote, "Unless you have been inside the case and know your clearances, it's best to be safe and run 20W-50 in the summer, 10W-40 in the winter." Now I know oil and how it acts, and I know about bearing clearances through building hot rods, but I never ran 20W-50 in anything before. I keep my tolerances tight and run 10W-30 in everything (except newer cars)...so running that heavy of an oil was odd to me. I also get elbow deep in everything I build, so I know my clearances are tight.

Now, he did follow it all up by saying once I have gone through everything and know it's condition and clearances, deciding an oil weight is much easier and I can run something more in line with what I need.

I have no temp sensor, but I have a pressure gauge. It kind of runs high in my opinion, but then again what do I know? After the oil change at cruise when warm it hangs right around 40psi and drops at idle, no more leaks at all...and I thought all ACVW's leaked! It runs much better, smoother, and has much more pep than it did before, but my oil was badly broken down prior to change. All of this I am viewing as a huge band-aid to keep it as good as I can until I can afford a proper rebuild.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drop viscosity until you lose your "10psi/1k RPM". As long as you are in this window you are good.

If you exceed 45psi at "cruise" your oil temps will skyrocket, since you are bypassing the cooler completely.

I also keep a viscosity "spread" of no more than 30. 0-30, 10-40, 20-50 are all ok. So is a narrower spread, 10-30, 5-30, 0-20, etc. I think 0-50 is a bad idea. I can't think of conditions where you'd need 0W for start up, yet 50 weight for when hot.
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Almost Alive
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fordman49 wrote:
Air cooled newb here...

'72 Std 1600 DP
Shitty chrome fan shroud and top tins, no other tins yet
External oil cooler mounted on the outside of the hood
External oil filter kit with K&N
Louvered hood (not solid)

Last week I went to a local ACVW mechanic whom I trust and watched him/assisted with the oil change so I could learn how to do it right...and boy am I glad I did. I felt like a dumbass but I learned a lot. Anywho...he said, and I quote, "Unless you have been inside the case and know your clearances, it's best to be safe and run 20W-50 in the summer, 10W-40 in the winter." Now I know oil and how it acts, and I know about bearing clearances through building hot rods, but I never ran 20W-50 in anything before. I keep my tolerances tight and run 10W-30 in everything (except newer cars)...so running that heavy of an oil was odd to me. I also get elbow deep in everything I build, so I know my clearances are tight.

Now, he did follow it all up by saying once I have gone through everything and know it's condition and clearances, deciding an oil weight is much easier and I can run something more in line with what I need.

I have no temp sensor, but I have a pressure gauge. It kind of runs high in my opinion, but then again what do I know? After the oil change at cruise when warm it hangs right around 40psi and drops at idle, no more leaks at all...and I thought all ACVW's leaked! It runs much better, smoother, and has much more pep than it did before, but my oil was badly broken down prior to change. All of this I am viewing as a huge band-aid to keep it as good as I can until I can afford a proper rebuild.


As I've seen previously stated "engines run great on ignorance".
Just because it seems to run correctly and you don't know what is going on inside, doesn't mean its right or isn't doing damage. Change your oil back to something lighter and if your oil light does not flicker at idle, you have "good enough" oil pressure. Having the case that you do, chances are 10w30 will be a good candidate. Also, do you recall what type of oil he put in your engine?
Now for everything else... ditch the crappy tins and get a FULL set of stock tins. You do not need an external oil cooler and it might be masking heat issues possibly caused by your external oil filter if you've got one of the oil pump/filter combo's. They commonly come with 32mm oil pumps which are way too large for basically anything under 2300cc's. Do you have a thermostat on it and if you do how quickly after starting the engine does it turn on? Normally they are set at 180 degrees.
Also, changing your oil will not change the driving characteristics of your engine. Even if the oil hadn't been changed its entire life, dropping the oil in it will not get rid of the sludge. There may be a difference, but it will be so minute that you won't be able to tell.
Even if he adjusted your accelerator cable you could see improvements of driving characteristics. What else did he do?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a "overheat" problem recently that was corrected with an oil change. On a little car I bought last year I rebuilt the engine as it had sat a while but was recently rebuilt. Just a basic "krylon tuneup" with new rings, rod bearings, pushrod tubes, and PAINT Laughing . ...Mainly for an "what do I have" inspection and clean up. The oil pump was reused and the external add on cooler ditched for simplicity. Stock doghouse.

First trip that I took it out on the interstate and oil temps rocketed up to 230. I was running 10w40 and at cruise I had 60psi. I dropped the oil and now run 5w20 synthetic and all is well. Running hard I see about 205...cruise 190 ish. I will eventually change the pump to a 26mm pump but for now run the 5w20. the oil change put me right under that 50psi.......

I thank you guys for the guidance......
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fordman49 wrote:
I have no temp sensor, but I have a pressure gauge.
This is much better than nothing.
Here's a rough indicator you can use until you get a temp gauge. After a freeway run where you think it's fully warmed up, pull into a rest area and immediately get out and pull the dipstick. If you can hold onto the stick indefinitely, your oil temps are ok. If it's too hot to hold, you're running hot.

Get rid of that chrome crap on your engine. Get all original cooling tin.
Then get rid of the external cooler. A stock 1600 doesn't need one.

Your excessive pressure is directly related to the 20W-50 tar your mechanic put in there. This also causes higher than normal oil temps.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:

If you exceed 45psi at "cruise" your oil temps will skyrocket, since you are bypassing the cooler completely.

edzachary. this is why nobody should use 20w-50 except those who live in very hot climates and those with very worn out engines. running 20w-50 anywhere that has a temperate climate (most of the usa) will result in a leaky overheating engine.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've seen previously stated "engines run great on ignorance


Wow...where to start? I came here for advice and knowledge because of my ignorance, not to have that ignorance thrown back at me. My engine runs fine...it's the oil (among other things) thats the issue. Engines do not run great on ignorance...they run for about 20 minutes if your lucky depending on the level of ignorance...that's a crappy quote.

Knowing the internal condition of your engine is a luxury I have not yet been able to afford. My mechanic and I made a decision based on many factors to shoot for 20W-50 and see what the pressure reads out at. After driving a few days, I can clearly see that my engine's internals are in much better shape than either of us realized, and a change in weight is needed. HUGE thanks to Bruce who had a hand in helping me realize it...I tried just that last night on my way to band practice and I couldn't hold the dipstick in my hand. This weekend (I hope) will see 10W-30 in the bug.

As for the rest of your ramble Almost Alive...as stated in my other posts...I am working on the tins and thermostat. There is no oil light, nor is there wiring for one. The oil cooler was already there, I don't have an original yet. Before you jump the gun, I know they are around and I should get one, I am waiting till I get the correct shroud to do the install anyways. My hopes are the end of the month will see 90% of the stock tins, the stock oil cooler, and a few other things I need to fix done. It is not ignorance, it is not even money...it's time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess my motor must be wore out then. Here's my deal on my rail. 1600sp motor. Nothing fancy at all, just a stinger and a crappy brosol carb. Swapped out transaxles this past weekend and when I put it all back in, I went ahead and changed the oil. Put in some mobil1 regular 10w30 in it with some zddp addivtive. Took it out to the store for a test run (didn't know if the transaxle was good or not). Went to leave the store and it didn't want to start at first. Sounded like it wanted to lock up. Got home and checked it out. It was very hot, couldn't even touch the dipstick it was so hot. Next day I got some of the same oil I had in it before, vavoline zr racing oil, 20w50. Started it up and drove it around for about 10 miles or so. Not hot at all now. Like the above poster, I only have the stock shroud and the tins on top of the heads/cylinders. Nothing else. No temp gauge but I do have a pressure gauge. Cold startup with the 10w30 was at 25psi. After it got warm, had 10psi per 1000rpms. Around 8psi at idle. With the 20w50, cold is at 30psi, 10 psi per 1000rpms and 10 at warm idle. Why would it want to overheat with the thinner oil then?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

68rail wrote:
Why would it want to overheat with the thinner oil then?

If all things are equal, it shouldn't. Because of that, I will suggest the difference you saw is due to the different driving conditions between your two "tests". Distance? Speed? Weather?

It could also be a stuck oil plunger valve. If it is stuck in the bypass-the-cooler position, then the thinner oil won't be able to take the heat like the tar.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just use the cheapest one cuz it really doesnt matter
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