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The importance of choosing the correct oil weight.
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michaeljsmyth
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont have to worry about it. it doesnt get 32 degrees here...

ill just stick with what VW mechanics in my area tell me to use. they say stay away from multiweight. doesnt matter what kind. VW's ran on single grade oil with less quality.

I wouldnt mind trying sae 30 in the winter here though. i mean once in a blue moon it will get frosty in the morning. but not when im driving my bug. i dont have thermostat and stuff either and my bug warms up just fine haha trust me i thought i was having overheating problems its so good at warming up. hot oil sensor gave me some peace of mind.

I use the top of the line multiweights in my motorcycles. but they are racing motors made with modern technology telling me to use this special oil.
well i have this old VW motor and guess what, i use the oil that goes with the motor... straight dino oil.... with zinc and phos... right now i have a case of VR1 sae40 which i bought and changed in summer (PO ran castrol HD 40w). im going to pick up a case of 30w VR1 for the next oil change.

everyone has their own little science theory for why they use the oil they use, and im sure most are not qualified to even make those statements and try to force others to accept thier point of view on a subject matter that is mostly based on opinion and preference, not correct and incorrect.

You can drive a New car with New technology and use New multiweight oil.
Or you can drive an Old car with Old technology and use Old dino oil, or vice versa. doesnt matter really as long as you have oil in the recommended specs. (at least for me because i dont have extreme variants of climate change)

Thick oil will not lubricate at all when cold enough.... hmm you must live in alaska if you have an oil freezing problem or pluto.

you can drive with no oil if you like, 2003 yukon went over 100 miles with absolutely NO engine oil at all in it through the desert... still runs to this day.im guessing just the oil left on the surface saved it thank god i used some marvel mystery oil additive. the quicky auto shop forgot to put oil back in my car. but my point is multiweight or not the oil is going to lubricate cold, hot, whatever its still oil.

So as long as ive got oil in the motor im happy
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michaeljsmyth wrote:

So as long as ive got oil in the motor im happy


I don't know if you are aware of the way VW engines regulate their oil temperatures. They do it by sensing the oil pressure and letting the oil get hot until the viscosity drops to where the engine wants it to be for the rpms where it is being driven. This will cause heavier oils to run hotter at sustained high rpm use than lighter oils.

I ran a bunch of different oils through my ACVW engines a few years ago to see how much difference there was in the oil temps and did find that a 20w50 oil ran hotter than a 5w-** oil on a long hill climb at moderate rpms. To my surprise though a 30wt oil ran cooler than any 5w-xx oil. I can not come up with a reason for this, but have swapped both a Type 1 and Type 4 engine back and forth a few times since between a synthetic multigrade and a straight 30wt and have gotten the same results each time, the 30wt ran cooler.

I have never tried to compare the temperatures seen by running a straight 40wt oil as quite frankly I haven't ever run that oil in a ACVW engine. It might be interesting for you to run your engine over a know route with your present 40wt watching your oil temps and then when you swap to 30wt run the same route again and see how the oil temps compare.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't believe me, look at what the petroleum engineers say about it. They'll tell you the operating range (temperature) of their oils. 30W is higher than 0-30, 5-30, or 10-30. 30W has to get much warmer before it starts working the way it's supposed to.

But you can use whatever you want, it's your engine(s).
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly the operating range for 30wt is much higher than that for 0w30 or the other oils. However if and when the temperatures in southern Cal require a 0w30 oil most of the life on earth is have already perished. The engineers at the SAE have said for decades that a 30wt oil will work fine at 32°F and I see no reason to stop believing them just because I read a post on the internet.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You misunderstand. Ambient has little to do with the oil, and really is not what I am discussing.

For example, if you follow "ambient" charts, is 32F ambient with 260F oil temps, "cold"?

Is 100F ambient with 160F oil temps, "hot"?

100F oil temps is plenty cold, and even after an engine has set for a week in August in 100F temperatures, it's very "cold" until the oil temps hit 180F or so.

So perhaps the difficulty here is one of definitions. You think I'm speaking of ambient, but that has nothing to do with what I am saying. 30W doesn't begin to work properly until 180F or so, while a multi grade will start behaving at temperatures far lower; that's why it was designed.

In all of my comments I'm referring to OIL TEMPS, the temp of the air is irrelevant.

It's clear that you think that 32F, 80F, or 100F oil temps are within the operating range of 30W, and that there is nothing bad with this. I believe you are incorrect, and there is nothing to benefit from discussing this further.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"it worked in the old vw's just fine" how many times we have heard that.just fine is what?? beat out case? rockers that get no oil because the oil hole is closed up with funkey oil? what is just fine?? kinda like whoping the pretty girl on the head with a club abd dragging her into your mancave so she could be your new wife.....that was just fine in the old days Shocked well real old days..."as seen on tv"!!. you cant teach old blind deaff dogs new tricks,just let them lick thier junk and go about a new modern life with new modern oils and rubs.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe you are incorrect, and there is nothing to benefit from discussing this further.

Just show me something from the SAE or a lubrication engineer that says that a 30wt oil will not lubricate at 32°, 80°, or 100°F, everything of authority I have read says that straight weights work better cold than multigrades at least dino ones because they handle moisture build up better the dino multigrades while viscosity is not an issue. You are hurting your engine less to run it at 100°F with 30wt in it than to run it at 100°F with a multigrade in it, this is from the SAE not The Samba and not Bob the Oil Guy.

Quote:
just fine is what?? beat out case? rockers that get no oil because the oil hole is closed up with funkey oil?


Now this is a new one, a case only get beat out now if you run straight weight oil? Wow what will you guys think of next? If you don't want to have your small oil drillings clogging up then don't run oil with a lot of additives, like multigrade dino oils for one, keep your crankcase ventilation in good condition for two, change your oil frequent for three, keep your thermostat and flaps working correctly for four, and five thank the environmentalist for getting the lead out of your gasoline as lead used to be a prime clogger of small oil passageways, particularly the rocker you speak of.
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The engineers at the SAE have said for decades that a 30wt oil will work fine at 32°F and I see no reason to stop believing them just because I read a post on the internet.


Wrong. Maybe your lucky, but others have learned the hard way a thousand times. More power you make the more critical it is. I think your luck is due to lack of horsepower Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I too run multigrades in my lawn mowers and such and even spring for synthetics, but they aren't Type 1 VW's and neither are Golfs for those that can't figure this out.


Could you please explain the lubrication differences between VW air-cooled engines and other engines. Last time I checked they all have bearings, piston rings and cams.

Wildthings wrote:
It is a pipe dream that 30wt is going to be too thick to flow at 32°F and I find it almost unbelievable that people would extend this wild claim to 60°F or even 100°F.


Why not use 30W-90? Also there is only a 58° difference between 32°F and 100°F but a 110°F difference between 100°F and 210°F.

Now try -40°F around here. That's only 250° colder than 210°F. Should I use straigh 40 or straight 50?

One other question. How does straight 30 lubricate at 32°F but destroys things at 35°F?
tatooed_parish wrote:
here's the thing, I've never dealt with modern oils, my modern cars had factory recommend weights, my beetle, i've ALWAYS ran flat 30 in because I lives in California, and it worked..

I'm in Hampton Virginia now.. it's friggin cold here. I just blew the rubber o-ring off of a Wix oil filter and I'm assuming it's because it was about 35*F, I was running flat 30, and the combination of thick oil, a cold filter, and the high pressure required to move thick oil, caused the oil to pick the weakest point (the o-ring) and push through it..

Fine, I'm sold, I need multi-weight oil.

I'm going to buy a K&N HP3001 filter, but for oil, I'm unsure..

I'm thinking 5W-30. does that sound right?

let's not turn this into an oil related flame war, I'm probably going to try and get royal purple, but this isn't a brand thread either.. I just have no idea about multi-weight oils and am looking for help..

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that the temperature RANGE that oils in our engines are more extreme than many other engines.

But I was pretty shocked to hear that NORMAL oil temps on some newer BMW engines (automotive) are 270-300F, which is one of the reasons they run synthetics.

I can understand running single grade oils if the engine is run VERY hot, because when an oil "breaks down" it turns into it's base weight oil. So 30W stays 30W, while 10-30 turns into 10W. But the oil has to get stupid hot for that to happen. I just find it humorous that people compare the viscosity of oil to "water", as if that means anything. Yes 5-30 is thinner than 30W, that's the whole )$*#)&* point isn't it?

And I never said that 30W won't lubricate at 32F, I am saying that a good multi grade will lubricate BETTER at 32F. I trust that the lubrication engineers have a clue what they are doing, and at 32F the multi grade is going to work better. Put another way, at what temperature is 30W going to work better than 10-30? Why?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I can understand running single grade oils if the engine is run VERY hot, because when an oil "breaks down" it turns into it's base weight oil. So 30W stays 30W, while 10-30 turns into 10W. But the oil has to get stupid hot for that to happen. I just find it humorous that people compare the viscosity of oil to "water", as if that means anything. Yes 5-30 is thinner than 30W, that's the whole )$*#)&* point isn't it?


How hot does the oil that is cooling the back of the 1-2 cylinder head get while in the head? I'm sure it is cooler when it gets back down the pushrod tubes to the block. I understand that the 3-4 head tends to hold more oil. (If you valve covers leak which one is usually worse?)

I know that a straight weight oil is not allowed to have viscosity enhancers in it. I understand that oils with a rating greater than 10 or 10W at the low end are allowed to have more ZDDP in them. This applies to oils with a current rating, racing oils not meeting current new car requirements can be whatever you want to buy.

I've always run mostly stock engines (perhaps 75 horsepower tops.) Most of my Bug miles where in the '80's and '90's and as a result most of them didn't have a thermostat in place. My current Bug came with the thermostat removed and I haven't installed it yet. Based on the advice "back in the day" I ran strait 30 weight oil (generally Castrol HD30) and never had a problem. I still run it in the Bug I have now, which is garaged and not driven cold days. I don't see any problem from it. I cannot deny it might shorten engine life some, but I'm pretty sure the engine in that Bug currently has 115,000 miles on it (just crossed over 114,999 today.) I don't know what previous owners ran in the engine (though the sticker on it when I bought it said 15W-40.)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:

And I never said that 30W won't lubricate at 32F, I am saying that a good multi grade will lubricate BETTER at 32F. I trust that the lubrication engineers have a clue what they are doing, and at 32F the multi grade is going to work better.


For an oil to work better it is going to have to have both a sufficient film thickness and handle moisture better. A dino multigrade likely offers a sufficient film thickness (though less than a 30wt) on cold starts at 32°F, but doesn't protect the engine from moisture as well as a straight weight oil during warm up and it is the moisture that causes the notorious cold start wear.

Try restarting your engine with a load of 0w-** - 5w-** oil in it on at 120°F day in the Sonoran Desert. I suspect you will get bearing knock if you shut down a hot engine and then restart it an hour or so later under these conditions. I dumped the 5w40 synthetic which had worked well for me for a decade in cooler climes because it caused bearing knock on hot restarts in the Sonoran. The engine was quiet on hot restarts once I went to a suitably thick oil (15w50) for the climate. I suspect I would have been quite happy with a straight 40wt in these conditions but didn't go that route as I wanted an oil that would work well on 25° winter nights as well as on hot summer days.

modok wrote:
I think your luck is due to lack of horsepower


I suspect that my bus runs at a higher average HP than most high performance Type 1 street engines out there ever achieve. You don't move a heavily loaded bus up a long western grade at highway speeds without generating lots of HP. Conversely it takes little average HP to race a Beetle from stop light to stop light in a city. FWIW I can't remember ever being passed by a Slug Bug in the 26+ years I have owned my bus and I have been passed by other buses only twice that I can remember, once on a down grade and once in a toll plaza.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It only takes 15 seconds or less to overheat a bearing, and yes it is OK once EVERYTHING is warmed up but until then risky.

Usually the kid racers that are repeating history but there are all types,
last year I fixed a ford v-10 that seized at idle on a zero degree day, older guy in a motorhome. the idea that older engines are "loose" sounds logical, but aluminum bearings often get tighter with age Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so... when is viscosity not an issue???????weather multie or single weight oil.??so if it isant an issue???see where Im going?? then why 30? if weight dosent matter I wonder why for this thread? I wonder why there are somany options??? the way I see it if you have a moisture issue you need to address that.but if your stuck in the1800's I gess it's ok.wale oil might be a good idea since the wales swim in water. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
For an oil to work better it is going to have to have both a sufficient film thickness and handle moisture better. A dino multigrade likely offers a sufficient film thickness (though less than a 30wt) on cold starts at 32°F, but doesn't protect the engine from moisture as well as a straight weight oil during warm up and it is the moisture that causes the notorious cold start wear.

Do you have a source for the idea that a multi-vis oil doesn't protect against "moisture as well as a straight weight oil"? That would be an important consideration in a stock Beetle engine as they do not have a real crankcase ventilation system. They mostly just have a line out, with little to no fresh air in to clear the crankcase of the moisture from combustion. Many stock Bugs today show condensation in the oil at the filler cap in the form of that brown foam (not that many Bugs today are high annual mileage daily drivers.)

I was just looking at the ZDDP and viscosity enhancers, a part of the spec. I know little about underlying causes of cold start wear, I've heard a number of different reasons given as "the cause." These days I just enjoy the Bug, it has been nearly 2 decades since they where my daily transportation on bad weather days.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I would think that the temperature RANGE that oils in our engines are more extreme than many other engines.

But I was pretty shocked to hear that NORMAL oil temps on some newer BMW engines (automotive) are 270-300F, which is one of the reasons they run synthetics.


You'd be surprized all the similarities there are between water-cooled and air-cooled engines. Most people assume there aren't any similarities without looking up the facts. Temps aren't allways that far apart. Like oval track racers that run constant 260°F water temps and 320°F oil temps. If the oil is reaching 320°F how hot are the heads and pistons? Those that see all these water-cooled cars getting excelent performance and longevity on modern multi-grade oil and then say "but mine's air-cooled so it's completely different" have no common sense.

All engine oils must meet both 210°F and 300°F specs. In fact, modern multi-grade API Certified SN oils like 10W-30 must be able to lubricate flat tappets just fine at high RPM for a long time the whole time over 300°F in order to pass inspection. In other words multi-grade oils aren't supposed to break down even at 300°F.

But the thing that really gets me is that the whole idea behind multi-grade oil is that it pumps better at colder temps. Yes, straight 30 can barely pump at a bare minimum of 32°F. But 25W isn't all that far behind straight 30. I'm surprized Wildthings doesn't use this in his engine:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juanito84 wrote:

But the thing that really gets me is that the whole idea behind multi-grade oil is that it pumps better at colder temps. Yes, straight 30 can barely pump at a bare minimum of 32°F. But 25W isn't all that far behind straight 30. I'm surprized Wildthings doesn't use this in his engine:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I made a recommendation that someone running 40wt in southern Cal switch to 30wt for the winter when he will be seeing overnight temps of 60°F, a temperature where 30wt will perform very well. You nut cases have twisted this any and every way you can to try and make it look like the use of 30wt under any condition will damage an engine, which it will not do. I have used my ACVW's as my primary and often sole year around transportation for nearly four decades at this point and engine losses for any reason have been few and far between and there has never been an engine loss because of my choice of appropriate lubricants.

EVfun wrote:
Do you have a source for the idea that a multi-vis oil doesn't protect against "moisture as well as a straight weight oil"?


As I said earlier in this present discussion it came from the SAE. I have also previously posted a link to the SAE paper it is from.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

Try restarting your engine with a load of 0w-** - 5w-** oil in it on at 120°F


It only gets to 110F here not 120, but my bearings love me and 0W40 oil.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm so im thinking that the multiweight fans have tried every kind of oil in every kind of condition in every vehicle, this is why they want everyone to use thier oil, and they are stupid for not using the oil they use.

And the reason your using the multiweight is due to climate and start up condition yet you claim ambient temp doesnt matter.......... well the ambient temp is where you start and if the ambient temp isnt cold, how could i be cold starting and wearing things that are completely covered in oil. oil doesnt just drip 100% off of everything once you shut down a motor overnight, cmon guys you are overthinking it just like most things. these engines are simple and i think you have no idea what your engine oil is actually doing when your starting it up and driving around. my bet is its working just fine!

so the whole debate is over start up temp vs oil lubrication at start up temp.... because once the motors warm you cant say anything bad about straight weight oil with the right stuff....

if your start up temps are really cold.,use multiweight. if you live in an area with very predictable weather, i dont see any, i mean any harm at all whatesoever with 30w 40w ect ect ect...

thinking that the oil will not lubricate when the oil is in its operating temp range is plain crazy talk. youare right that multiweight can lube better at the lower temps, sure but thats what its made for, lower temps... some people dont have lower temps which defeats the need for multiweight oil in your ACVW.

switching from 30w to 40w in summer/winter makes perfect sense to me though, here in the coastal/desert of so cal...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, so straight weights are perfect for engines that are never ever shut down.
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