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Dual Vacuum Distributor Timing
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I understand now, thanks.

I put a new throttle plate on with the smaller hole for now, since the Retard line doesn't seem to be working I'm going to just time it as a SVDA for now. Will look for a new DVDA Distributor this summer at swap meets and switch to a 5/32" hole in the throttle plate when I get that working.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Very Happy

Dan
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to bump this with some updated information and problems..
Using a Solex 34Pict-3 DVDA Carb VW325_3
113 905 205 AH DVDA Distributor
Case: AE 910215
Manifold: 113 129 701 AP

Recently bought a DVDA distributor from a swap meet, very clean but the plates were frozen. Tore it apart and got them to move again. Sucking in on the vacuum line and neither advance nor retard move the plates. It idles fine but has no power what-so-ever, I barely made it up the inch gap between grass and garage. Note: I realize as I'm typing this that the points gap is not correctly set.

Since I couldn't get the new dizzy plates to move (via sucking on the vacuum line), I tried doing it on the old dvda with a non functioning retard line and realized that the plates are completely frozen. I could not move them with a screwdriver, yet my car used to run (went back and forth to 4 car shows at an hour drive each way, plus some other car shows like this) Maybe they recently froze up, but it's been less than a week since I pulled it.

I'm assuming I need a new distributor (or maybe have Glenn rebuild the vacuum, since I think he said he recently does that) but just want some guidance. If the vacuum isn't working at all, it would make sense that I have no power because the timing isn't being changed when I raise the RPM?
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the vacuum isn't working the engine will still run good. You won't get the increased mileage a vacuum advance gives, and you won't get the clean idle the retard gives.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vee dub dan wrote:
If the vacuum isn't working at all, it would make sense that I have no power because the timing isn't being changed when I raise the RPM?

"DVDA" stands for "Dual Vacuum Dual Advance". The two advance systems are vacuum advance and mechanical (centripital/centrifugal) advance.
So even if BOTH of your vacuum systems are "dead", the mechanical advance will still allow the timing to advance as the engine rpms increase.
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, i thought that at least the advance line was critical in making the engine run right. I wonder then, what caused me to lose all power considering all i changed was the distributor and throttle plate. I was pretty careful in making sure the dist cap went back on the way it came off
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vee dub dan wrote:
Oh, i thought that at least the advance line was critical in making the engine run right. I wonder then, what caused me to lose all power considering all i changed was the distributor and throttle plate. I was pretty careful in making sure the dist cap went back on the way it came off

Please provide some numbers on your timing.
Initial timing at idle? With mechanical-only advance, this should be in the 5-10 BTDC range.

When does mechanical advance start to kick in? 1200 rpm or 1800 rpm?

What is the total timing at 3000-3500 rpm? Once all the mechanical advance is in, you want it to read no more than 26-30 BTDC. If you don't have a degree pulley, the TDC mark will be just around the point where the fan belt meets the pulley when timing is at 30 BTDC.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the spec for your distributor:

Beetle 1971-1973 * 1600 Auto-Stick Trans
Distributor: VW 113-905-205AH, Bosch 0231 167 053 > 043-905-205D, 0231 176 033
Can Use: VW 043-905-205D, Bosch 0231 176 033, 211-905-205Q, 0231 167 055, 211-905-205S, 0231 173 001
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 311-905-227C, Bosch 1237 110 161
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 092
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected.
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm


Note the Centrifugal timing specs. Your distributor should test within the ranges listed. It doesn't actually state WHEN the mechanical advance starts to kick in, if it doesn't start to come in until 2200rpm, it would be lacking power just off idle. Normally the vacuum advance would provide the additional advance in this range, but yours is apprently broken.

If you have a vacuum hand pump you could test your vacuum can for the andvance/retard settings listed (not sure you can suck hard enough to get the vacuum can to full advance/retard).
Does the vacuum retard hose coming from the rear-facing carb port have vacuum at idle? It should. Can you feel it sucking when you place your finger over the distributor end of the hose?
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volkenstein
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Veedubdan,
^^ WHS. I will add that a 205AH is pretty wrong for your beast.

You will get better service out of a 205AN or any other late model MANUAL car's distributor, be it DVDA or SVDA.

That 205AH suits my own vehicle specfically, and even I get better "seat-of-the-pants" feel with other distributors.

Long term, I would look to a more suited distributor.


Enjoy
Volkenstein
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm[/color]

Note the Centrifugal timing specs. Your distributor should test within the ranges listed. It doesn't actually state WHEN the mechanical advance starts to kick in, if it doesn't start to come in until 2200rpm, it would be lacking power just off idle.


If you look in the Bentley, You'll find it says when advance starts:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That being an Autostick distributor, it is set for a different curve than the ones for stick shift models. There is hardly any vacuum advance in it, while the centrifugal starts to kick in at the 1000-1200RPM range - then is a bit flat at middle RPMs and then kicks in more at higher speeds.

-Andy
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my car must have been an auto-stick at one point, I have a port plugged on the side of the manifold right below the carb and was told it was for autosticks and the distributor that came with it is apparently for an autostick.

Anyways, I'm not near the car to test this atm.. will try this weekend. The only problem is that when I use the timing light (pulling the trigger) it kills the engine, even when I have the light hooked up to an extra battery. I'm going to assume it's because it's a universal, you pull the spark plug wire off the dist cap and put a metal spring in between them. I'll borrow a better timing light.

I might also put my 009 back on for now (and not mess with these 2), until I can get a working distributor that is also correct for the car; 205AN.
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