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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: 1957 Oval Project Questions |
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Picked up a 1957 Oval last week. My first one. Pretty complete car that is disassembled. I've been around split buses, bay windows, 60's beetles, but some stuff has me scratching my head. I don't have enough hands on experience. Hope some of you with knowledge will be willing to point me in the right direction. And yes, I know how the search button works and I just ordered a Bentley manual for ovals, but it won't be here for a week.
First off, I note that it has a later beetle trans. Not sure where the numbers are where I can check the year, but not split case. My concern is the carrier bracket and the tranny mounts. They don't line up in the photo. Wrong carrier? Wrong mounts? Something else?
I've read where you need an early 60's bus nose cone for this change. Don't know what kind this is, but here are some pics of the cone area. Is this correct for this modification?
Found this little guy in a bag. Something door related?
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GLHTurbo
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 1376
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:16 am Post subject: |
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looks like a crude adapter from the original.
that other piece is for the lower vent window I believe. Holds the shaft from it.
_________________
1957 Beetle
1966 Bus |
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rlucas
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Nice! any overall pics of the car?
The clamp looks like the clamp for the front vent window? Bolts to the door. No idea about the transmission though... |
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valentinesr
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2008
Posts: 749
Location: Ontario, California
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rud helsen
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Belgium, Heist op den Berg
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| rlucas wrote: |
Nice! any overall pics of the car?
The clamp looks like the clamp for the front vent window? Bolts to the door. No idea about the transmission though... |
correct about the clamp!  |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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That transaxle carrier looks like it's bent, you could probably tweak it back into shape if you remove it, or get another one when you get new mounts, and the right bus nosecone/hockey stick, and get rid of that adapter plate.
Typical listing from a typical supplier for the nosecone, note their description of the matching hockey stick as well: They come up for sale in thesamba classifieds for less money if you're willing to wait.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-211-301-205-H |
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GLHTurbo
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 1376
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| valentinesr wrote: |
My 54 had the same plate for a later transaxle on my car.. They sell plates that are more appealing to the eye.. but serves the same purpose.. I cleaned it up, and am going to run with it..
Heres an example of a good looking one..
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1061090 |
keep in mind that this is a solid mount, and doesnt use a rubber mount with it. If you want to run a rubber mount, you need a Bus nosecone, Bus hockey stick.
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1957 Beetle
1966 Bus |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
That transaxle carrier looks like it's bent, you could probably tweak it back into shape if you remove it, or get another one when you get new mounts, and the right bus nosecone/hockey stick, and get rid of that adapter plate.
Typical listing from a typical supplier for the nosecone, note their description of the matching hockey stick as well: They come up for sale in thesamba classifieds for less money if you're willing to wait.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-211-301-205-H |
Greatly apreciate these responses, especially the one above.
I'll assume from this response that I do not have the bus nose cone with the proper hockey stick and mount.
From another transmission thread whcih gave 3 options for replacing early trans, It appears one of the prior PO's selected option #3, when option #2 seems to be the better choice.
1) remove the old moumt and weld in a later front mount
2) use a 1964-67 Type 2 nose cone & hockey stick
3) use an adapter: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D4749
This car is pretty nice. All the hard work is done. I have a nice 36HP turn key ready to go in. I want to address this transmission problem first.
The most recent PO did a really nice job. Since someone asked about pics here you go.
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I must say that's a few notches above what I expected to see after seeing that crusty looking transaxle.
A lot of people seem to like the idea of going back to the split case transaxle eventually, so I agree there is little reason to weld in the mounts when there are bolt-on nosecones that do exactly the same thing.
Now is the time for you to (attempt) replace your choke cable if yours is stuck.
There is one thing you need to be aware of. When you switch to a Bus nosecone, you may find the top of the transaxle hits the luggage shelf and you'll need to dimple the sheet metal to make it fit. Adapter plates can sometimes hide this problem by moving the transaxle slightly rearward. However, if I ever do this to another car, I'm determined to look at the possibility of using different bolts and relieving the transaxle case to try to minimize or eliminate this problem.
Here's a photo of the dimpled luggage shelf:
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GüteAndTite
Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 2144
Location: Low So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
I must say that's a few notches above what I expected to see after seeing that crusty looking transaxle.
A lot of people seem to like the idea of going back to the split case transaxle eventually, so I agree there is little reason to weld in the mounts when there are bolt-on nosecones that do exactly the same thing.
Now is the time for you to (attempt) replace your choke cable if yours is stuck.
There is one thing you need to be aware of. When you switch to a Bus nosecone, you may find the top of the transaxle hits the luggage shelf and you'll need to dimple the sheet metal to make it fit. Adapter plates can sometimes hide this problem by moving the transaxle slightly rearward. However, if I ever do this to another car, I'm determined to look at the possibility of using different bolts and relieving the transaxle case to try to minimize or eliminate this problem.
Here's a photo of the dimpled luggage shelf:
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this dimpling doesnt need to be done on 56 and later cars.
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Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| That photo is of my 57, and the full synchro will not fit without those dimples. Maybe others don't need it by mine does. |
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Thomas Pedigo
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Joined: July 03, 2010
Posts: 1052
Location: Nine Mile Falls/Sunset Bay,WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if I would try to fix that rear trans carrier. It has really sustained some serious damage IMO. Otherwise,the Oval looks real nice. Congrats!
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warrior1641
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Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 279
Location: cincinnati oh
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
| That photo is of my 57, and the full synchro will not fit without those dimples. Maybe others don't need it by mine does. |
I agree I had to do the same on my 57
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
I must say that's a few notches above what I expected to see after seeing that crusty looking transaxle.
A lot of people seem to like the idea of going back to the split case transaxle eventually, so I agree there is little reason to weld in the mounts when there are bolt-on nosecones that do exactly the same thing.
Now is the time for you to (attempt) replace your choke cable if yours is stuck.
There is one thing you need to be aware of. When you switch to a Bus nosecone, you may find the top of the transaxle hits the luggage shelf and you'll need to dimple the sheet metal to make it fit. Adapter plates can sometimes hide this problem by moving the transaxle slightly rearward. However, if I ever do this to another car, I'm determined to look at the possibility of using different bolts and relieving the transaxle case to try to minimize or eliminate this problem.
Here's a photo of the dimpled luggage shelf:
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Yes, I was also surprised by the quality of work put into this oval by the PO, who, I should add, is a very good VW person. I ended up with a very "doable" project.
I will check the choke cable. That cable, along with the clutch cable, heater cables & accelerator cable are all still there, but their 'usability" is in doubt.
I've read all the threads on the bus nosecone "dimple" and I appreciate you pointing that issue out as it made quick sense when I uncovered the other threads.
This thing will take some time, but I appreciate having the opportunity to not only ask questions but to also receive such meaningful responses. Thanks to all. |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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As a result of the information provided here, I decided to try to find a '60-'67 bus nosecone/hockey stick to correct the issue with the later trans in this '57 Oval. In talking to the local LEAKOILERS, one of my friends offered me a good working '67 bus trans. So I did a little research.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469223&highlight=trans
Ok, I guess I could pull the nosecone/hockey stick off the '67 tranny and if the original mount is still behind the "hack" job you see in the earlier photos, I should be good to go. But this Oval hasn't run in years and I have no idea of the current transmissions actual condition. I know the '67 bus tranny is good.
So here's my question...
1. Is a bus tranny the same as a bug tranny in terms of the fit? (I know the gearing is different and it's 12 volt bushing in '67) I'm concerned that if I use my axles will they bolt up without issues to the '67 bus tranny?
Here are my axles where they enter the tranny now...
Right side...
Left side...
This 67 bus tranny is "end to end" with big nut RGB's. I want to remove the bus axles at the tranny and bolt my existing axles to the bus tranny and be done with it. Any problems? |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Should work, it's the same case and differential and side gears. Actually, the 67 might have a taller ring and pinion, but it will still bolt up. You can figure it out by seeing how much it turns when you turn the input shaft, do some math, someone here will know how many turns in 4th gear it will take to figure it out I expect. But yes, it will take your axles just fine. |
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Motorhead55
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2007
Posts: 468
Location: California U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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If you use the BUS trans then you have to flip the ring gear over to the other side or you will have 4 speeds REVERSE! 
The bus trans has a .82 TO 1 taller 4th gear that the .89 to 1 bug 4th.
Third gear is taller in a '67 trans and so is reverse.
The ring and pinion is also taller geared at 4.125 to 1 as the bug is 4.375 to 1.
That accounts for about 4-5 more miles per hour FASTER at the same RPM as a standard bug, PRE '67 tunnel trans.
You might be slightly over geared for a stock 36hp with the bus trans. That trans would be good if you ran a bigger cc engine or had a performance built 36hp.
These specs were taken from VW service publication "Without Guesswork"
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1967 Triumph Tiger Cub |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Appreciate those thoughtful and informative responses. I now get what is involved. I forgot about the effect of RGB's on the equation of using a bus transmission.
I still have one other option. I'm sitting on an end to end rebuilt early '59 split case bus tranny. So I guess with some work, I could go back to stock.
I really don't want to mess with this one though, since it's my backup for my bus.
Now that I know what's involved, I'll decide between the '67 bus tranny and the early 60's beetle tranny. Appreciate the information. |
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outoftheoffice
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow, very nice looking bug. Should be a fun project. The paint looks amazing - is that color by any chance Diamond Grey? Sure looks like it.. |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| outoftheoffice wrote: |
| Wow, very nice looking bug. Should be a fun project. The paint looks amazing - is that color by any chance Diamond Grey? Sure looks like it.. |
Polar Silver. While I'm not a fan of the color he chose, the PO did an excellent job on the paint. The oval was originally coral red, (a color I love), bot the PO hated it so he went with polar silver, (which I'm told was a proper color for '57). All in all, to get an oval in the NE, especially the Cleveland area, that was not loaded with rust and in need of hours and hours of welding was a blessing, so I don't think it will be too hard for me to get use to the color.
The PO even put a new wiring works replacement harness in.
I'm trying to learn about Ovals. Got the Bentley today. I started this thread to hopefully ask questions along the way and try to get it right without hacking anything to death. I'm a stock guy with some allowable changes.
Here's a few more pics while I sort out the tranny issue...
The steering box was bone dry. Seems to be loosening up now, but the front end will need attention.
While I had the chance I figured I better POR-15 the undercarriage and wells. I even managed to keep it off my hands!
At least when they painted it they really took the time (for the most part) and did a decent job of covering the original paint.
One thing I still need to figure out are bolt sizes. I've found the threads for totally stainless and the whole 8.8 strength debate but I need to learn the common oval bolt sizes. You know, 6mm X 1.25 pitch X 20mm, (If that's even a size?) A lot of the hardware on this thing is crap. Need to get that taken care of.
While I do that I'm getting the fender beading together. It's tough with only two hands!
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