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MootPoint Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2006 Posts: 862 Location: ABQ, NM
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: Louder and Hornier |
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I snagged a pair of horns off an '85 Mercedes at the local U-Pull last week and want to replace my weak, quacking original horn in my '84. I know I need to add/change a relay to cover the increased voltage requirement but I'm at a loss of how to proceed, what relay I need, where it goes, and what changes in wiring I need to do to make the new dual horns work.
Modifications to the fuse panel and relays are a mystery to me. I had a relay added when I upgraded the headlights but a shop did that for me and I'm a dork when it comes to electrical stuff so I need some lessons. Any volunteers?
Thanks. _________________ 1984 Westy with tencentlife power! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 16972 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps. I don't think you can damage the electrical system by using the mercedes horns. You just need to verify they have both a ground and power terminal. If they have only one, then the horns ground through their mounting and you will need to adapt a relay. A simple common 4 connector relay would work. Or if you were adding air horns with a compressor you might add a relay. _________________ ☮️ |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Captain Pike Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003 Posts: 3327 Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Side note:If your IG switch has failed and you have no dash power. Jump the horn + (hot) to the running lights + turn them on and you can remote power the dash. _________________ If You Build It______It Will Run
1959 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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MootPoint Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2006 Posts: 862 Location: ABQ, NM
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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rsxsr wrote: |
Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps. I don't think you can damage the electrical system by using the mercedes horns. You just need to verify they have both a ground and power terminal. If they have only one, then the horns ground through their mounting and you will need to adapt a relay. A simple common 4 connector relay would work. Or if you were adding air horns with a compressor you might add a relay. |
Well, I thought so too but when I hooked them up (two wires, a brown - I assume ground - and a black/yellow) to the original horn wiring on the Westy (same colors except the brown is a bit darker) and hit the horn they only gave an anemic bleat, not the thunderous blast when I benched tested the pair on 12v. I'm assuming that means they aren't getting enough juice through the original circuit to power both Merc horns at the same time. Or am I missing something? _________________ 1984 Westy with tencentlife power! |
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1621 Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2006 Posts: 2174
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you'll definitely require a relay to power the new horns, the stock wiring is limiting the requisite number of amps. The good news, adding a relay is actually quite simple, only requiring running two new wires and a fuse. The original wires will connect to pins 85 & 86 on the relay (they'll be clearly labeled). One of the new wires will run from the battery (or suitable 12v source) to pin 30 and should have an inline fuse. The second new wire will run from pin 87 to the new horns. The horns will likely have their own ground through bolting to the body, or if not, you can create a ground pathway with a ground wire from the horn to the body. Really simple, and there are dozens of diagrams on the net to provide visuals. Have fun, and please post an audio clip when they're finished!
_________________ '85 Westy |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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You need a relay. Also, YOU NEED A relay!!!!
The problem isn't the power feed to the horn. The weak spot is the ground wire path to the horn button. That path is weak and gets weaker with age. The relay gives that path a much easier load to carry.
Mark
MootPoint wrote: |
rsxsr wrote: |
Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps..... |
Well, I thought so too but when I hooked them up (two wires, a brown - I assume ground - and a black/yellow) to the original horn wiring on the Westy (same colors except the brown is a bit darker) and hit the horn they only gave an anemic bleat, not the thunderous blast when I benched tested the pair on 12v. I'm assuming that means they aren't getting enough juice through the original circuit to power both Merc horns at the same time. Or am I missing something? |
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psych-illogical Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2004 Posts: 1181 Location: AZ
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be the first to admit that I too am a little bit weak when it comes to electrical stuff. I did, however, notice that there's a fundamental difference between this wiring diagram and the one in the haywood-sullivan.com link a few posts up. That is, in this diagram the contacting of the relay completes the 12V positive line between the battery and the horn. In the other diagram the relay completes the ground line between the horn and the ground. My sense of electrical logic says that this shouldn't make any difference but inquiring minds want to know... does it matter? _________________ 83 1/2 Westy waterboxer
'57 Beetle-sold
Coupla '81 BMW motorcycles (R80G/S; R100RS)
'96 BMW R1100GS |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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psych-illogical wrote: |
does it matter? |
No. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 16972 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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You can use a standard relay to switch power or ground. Another poster stated that it was the ground through the horn button causing the poor performance. If that is the case, you would leave the 12 plus power alone and then wire the relay to pass a ground when activated by the horn button. So using the diagram below, 30 would be to a good chassis ground. 87 would go to the ground wire to the horns. The original ground wire from the horns would get plugged on to 86 or 85 and the one not used would have key on power.
So, when you press the horn button, the relay energizes completing the circuit between 30 and 87 grounding the horns and they should blow.
If the problem is not the ground as suggested, then you would wire the relay as it is in the diagram. _________________ ☮️ |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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That diagram is not especially suitable for a horn relay on a Vanagon. Keep it simple and get the job done while keeping things as stock as is practical. Use a relay triggered by the horn button ground. Use the stock horn power feed setup to power the relay and new horn(s). Done it several times, some recently. IF you are installing a major horn upgrade setup THEN think about a new more direct power feed. Adding typical dual horns like those in other European makes and models doesn't require a different power feed, just a different and more direct ground. The stock horn ground is the weak spot in our vans. Where have I heard that before?
Mark
rsxsr wrote: |
You can use a standard relay to switch power or ground. Another poster stated that it was the ground through the horn button causing the poor performance. If that is the case, you would leave the 12 plus power alone and then wire the relay to pass a ground when activated by the horn button. So using the diagram below, 30 would be to a good chassis ground. 87 would go to the ground wire to the horns. The original ground wire from the horns would get plugged on to 86 or 85 and the one not used would have key on power.
So, when you press the horn button, the relay energizes completing the circuit between 30 and 87 grounding the horns and they should blow.
If the problem is not the ground as suggested, then you would wire the relay as it is in the diagram. |
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thatvwbusguy Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2007 Posts: 1712 Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I just added a horn relay kit to my website, many thanks to Mark (crazyvwvanman) for the inspiration. Details can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/horn-relay
I added one to my '85 Westy this afternoon and the difference is very noticeable even with the anemic stock horn. This should do the trick for any standard horn (or dual horns) you would want to add to your van. _________________ Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion. |
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VanWilder Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2009 Posts: 1349 Location: PDX-Weird Town, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I am a purist when it comes to the sound of a VW horn. I think it speaks
volumes to here the nice BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! of the OEM.
Off topic I know,, sorry. _________________ VW
________________________
"83.5" Vanagon GL Air cooled "VanWilder"
VanWilder has given back to me more then I could ever put into it September 22, 2010
Malama Ka `Aina—"Respect the Land" |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9889 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Louder dual horns were stock on many VWs. To stay pure, get a set of those!
Mark
VanWilder wrote: |
I am a purist when it comes to the sound of a VW horn. I think it speaks
volumes to here the nice BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! of the OEM.
Off topic I know,, sorry. |
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J Charlton Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2007 Posts: 1544 Location: The True North Strong and Free
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: electrical basics - including relays |
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You may want to check out http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=445519&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 for an ongoing thread on 12v electrical basics - the same material is available at http://northamericanhightops.com as well on the pages "other useful stuff" _________________ NAHT hightop availability May 18 2023 -
Bend Oregon - for Oregon, California- (7 tot , 3 available), Kennewick Wa (6 tot, 3 available), Small Car Performance Fife Wa. (7 tot 5 avail ), Fairbanks Alaska (1 tot 0 avail)
Future availability TBD : Springfield Mass. Staunton Va, Florida, Colorado, Grand Junction Co., SLC probably late 2023 |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: horn relay |
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Thanks to this thread, especially crazyvwvanman and thatvwbusguy, we now have a horn that is loud enough and sounds vw.
New stock horn from van cafe
relay and wiring harness kit from thatvwbusguy _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Nice idea, but I would NEVER put a relay out in the elements like that...... _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12102 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Concur ^ Time to wrap that rascal. Someone here came up with a cool idea for a weather resistant electrical box by using some form of tupperware with the clasping tops...or better yet, just relocate the relay under the dash. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Re: weather: Yep, I'm wondering about this too. I just installed it yesterday, certainly works now and I like the simplicity/proximity but I have been scheming about some way to seal it.
OTOH, is it possible that location is actually a relatively sheltered spot that doesn't see much moisture? It seems like a good quality "weather resistant" relay by Scosche. Of course there are the unprotected connections at the relay harness.
Any others ideas/experiences? _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 16972 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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It's a horn, not a fuel injection relay. It cost what $10? Use it as is. If it is problematic then deal with a more ideal location. It is not like you would be left stranded.
I have done a lot of mods to my Vanagon. I am always hestitant to post my work, because of the criticism some of my work might receive. You had a dilema, you posted here for help, you came up with solution and are reporting back. Good job in my opinion. _________________ ☮️ |
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