Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
3 wire voltage regulator for generator?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: 3 wire voltage regulator for generator? Reply with quote

Ok so I have a 69 bug with a 74 engine we just droped into it.
When we connected a new battery to the mix, it discharged itself overnight.
with some research on the site we found out that this is usually a voltage regulator problem.
So went out and bought a new one.
the new one has 61, B+ and the normal markings on it.
The old one that we pulled out had markings of m, a, j, and b
and instead of four wires like the new regulator tells me, there were only three wires connected.
I cant seem to find anything on this setup anywhere.
Is there such a thing as a 3 wire voltage regulator setup in a bug?

Thanks in advance guys!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
juvisaurusREX
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: United States
juvisaurusREX is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey I found this on another post...maybe this will help us?
looks like we can "reverse engineer" re-wire?
i am thinking the guy before us had a alternator with external VR...so if we just follow these instructions backward we should get the desired effect?

ashman40 wrote:
The D+ runs to the Gen light in the speedometer. With the igntion ON (engine not running) if you ground the alternator end of this wire the Gen light should light up brightly.

The Gen light is important. It provides an initial charge to the field coil which starts the alternator charging. Without it working the alternator may be spinning but it won't be charging.

This pic from SPeedy Jim's site shows the proper wiring for your alternator:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Joel
Samba Member


Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 10554
Location: NSW Australia
Joel is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you are mixing and matching parts.

THe 74 engine would have had an externally regulated alternator on it, your 69 bug would be setup for a generator unless some PO has done who knows what.

They are 2 totally different setups and the regulators need to suit.

The diagram above is only useful to someone that has a generator car and has fitted an internally regulated alternator. which have no regulator under the backseat anymore, externally regulated alternators are wired up totally different again.

Post a pic of the engine so we can see if you have a generator or an alternator and which type externally or internally regulated.
_________________
Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
johnnypan
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 6943
Location: sackamenna
johnnypan is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heres Speedy Jims whole site...

http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/Elec.htm

Dude,are you Bill Nye the Science Guy?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
juvisaurusREX
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: United States
juvisaurusREX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I helping "BillNye" with this project and you are right, we have a 74 engine in a 68 shell, but the engine we got was completely rebuilt and DOES have a generator that needs the external VR. We recently realized that the shell we got must have had been set up for a internally powered alternator, so we assume, but on the same note there was external VR hooked up under the seat with only 3 wires...confusing I know. Anyway what we need to know is how to wire our NEW external VR under the seat to our generator, battery, and "G" light in the dash.

Thanks again for the help, it's much appreciated!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a generator you can ignore the above diagram. Try this one from Speedy Jim's site:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
You only need three wires between the alternator and the VR. Maybe only two if you skip the ground wire (keep the ground if you can).
The other two wires at the VR are B+ (to battery and font) and #61 (Gen lamp).

Can you post a pic of your old VR? Could it be the VR for an alternator? These usually have a single plastic connector for four wires (only three are used). The generator VRs don't use a unified connector. Each wire runs to a separate junction.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
juvisaurusREX
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2011
Posts: 3
Location: United States
juvisaurusREX is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At work right now so i can't get a pic. Ill try to get one up later but we believe it is the original VR (seeing as it is a '6Cool it has 4 metal terminals on it marked as (M, A, J, and B) and the new VR is marked as in the diagram you posted. thanks for the clarification about being able to run it with only 3 wires. I am sure that will solve the problem. I will reply back ASAP with results and a pic.

Thanks again!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok here's 2 pics of the regulator.
the more gunk i scrape off the bottom, this looks to be an original part, unfortunately i dont see a model number or anything
linked for size.
http://i.imgur.com/o0keb.jpg
labeled the terminals

http://i.imgur.com/RtOSG.jpg
dead on view of terminals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billnye wrote:
ok here's 2 pics of the regulator.
the more gunk i scrape off the bottom, this looks to be an original part, unfortunately i dont see a model number or anything
linked for size.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
labeled the terminals

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
dead on view of terminals

That looks like a VW 40A relay used for various systems.
Here's one in the classifieds:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1135237

Maybe someone installed it as a hard start relay for the starter solenoid? HSR are typically installed under the left rear seat.

It is NOT a VR.

Your VR for a generator should look like one of these:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

You need to find the two/three wires under the rear seat coming from the generator. Also the B+ wires that run to the battery and the front. And the #61 wire. Once you have all of these identified... connect them to your new regulator.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, ok!
so then this car doesn't have a VR on it.
it must have been internal before.
Thanks for the help, i guess i just gotta reverse the directions from external to internal above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were me, I would re-install an internally regulated alternator. The advantages outweigh the use of a generator. Especially if your car is already wired properly for an alternator.

Unless you are going for an "all original" setup, in which case a generator is appropriate.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daw, yea, its starting to look that way.
I disassembled and then reassembled the wiring in the bug.
now it doesnt seem like the battery is discharging, but the "g" light is on when the car is on (but not when the car is off)
I have another 69 bug here (#2) so i copied the wiring over to make sure i was doing it right.(#2 is original)
All the wires are hooked up the same to the VR, but I did notice some wires in the harness that aren't there on bug #1.
Also when i go to test the generator with my multimeter i get one probe in and it starts going crazy shooting up and down faster than i can read. both probes in yield the same result.

any other ideas on what could be causing all this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billnye wrote:
I have another 69 bug here (#2) so i copied the wiring over to make sure i was doing it right.(#2 is original)
All the wires are hooked up the same to the VR, but I did notice some wires in the harness that aren't there on bug #1.

Which wires? Are they different that the above pic for the generator w/ VR? Some later models came with wires that run to the diagnostic block. There are NOT critical to the operation of the VR. Everything in the above diagram is. Describe the extra wires and where they go.

billnye wrote:
Also when i go to test the generator with my multimeter i get one probe in and it starts going crazy shooting up and down faster than i can read. both probes in yield the same result.

Where are you connecting your probes?
With one wire of your MM connected you get a reading? Is your meter set to measure VDC (voltage DC)? Its not set for VAC (voltage AC), is it? Or worse yet, its not set to measure resistance, is it?

More info (and/or pics) are needed.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:

Which wires? Are they different that the above pic for the generator w/ VR? Some later models came with wires that run to the diagnostic block. There are NOT critical to the operation of the VR. Everything in the above diagram is. Describe the extra wires and where they go.

sorry i fell off for a bit, I had some oil leaks and other more pertinent problems, but this bug has wires that are capped or cut off everywhere. The voltage regulator itself seems to have all the same connections on both bugs and your diagram, I polarized the generator (it didn't spin) but the generator light is still on. and I've drove ~30 miles with it and the battery is still at 12.16 volts.

ashman40 wrote:

Where are you connecting your probes?
With one wire of your MM connected you get a reading? Is your meter set to measure VDC (voltage DC)? Its not set for VAC (voltage AC), is it? Or worse yet, its not set to measure resistance, is it?

I would say its a faulty volt meter except it works on everything else from 12v on the bug to 120v on the wall. I connect either the + or the - to the D+ side and the meter bounces through a huge range of votlages. If I hook the meter up to DF and D+ it does the same thing. and yea its on dc voltage Sad
More info (and/or pics) are needed.[/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billnye wrote:
I polarized the generator (it didn't spin) but the generator light is still on. and I've drove ~30 miles with it and the battery is still at 12.16 volts.

Here is Speedy Jim's link on testing and polarizing the generator.
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/gen.htm
I believe it SHOULD spin in the normal (clockwise) directions when you polarize it. Did you try giving it a light spin in the correct direction by hand to get it going?

ashman40 wrote:

Where are you connecting your probes?
With one wire of your MM connected you get a reading? Is your meter set to measure VDC (voltage DC)? Its not set for VAC (voltage AC), is it? Or worse yet, its not set to measure resistance, is it?

I would say its a faulty volt meter except it works on everything else from 12v on the bug to 120v on the wall. I connect either the + or the - to the D+ side and the meter bounces through a huge range of votlages. If I hook the meter up to DF and D+ it does the same thing. and yea its on dc voltage Sad [/quote]
You mentioned only reading 12.16v at the battery.... that means your battery is discharged and only in the 25-50% charge range. A fully charged battery should have a resting voltage of 12.60v. Get you battery charged before you run any tests. A weak battery will lower the output voltage of the charging system.

Testing voltage between the terminals you mention above are not the standard tests. I'm not sure WHAT voltage you should expect.
Do the generator test in the link above. This test will only work if you polarize your generator FIRST.
Disconnect all wires from the generator. Ground the DF terminal and place your voltmeter between the D+ and ground. Only run it this way for just a few seconds to get a reading. It should be up in the 30v+ range. If this test is good, your generator is putting out the proper voltage. Suspect a problem in the VR.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Testing voltage between the terminals you mention above are not the standard tests. I'm not sure WHAT voltage you should expect.
Do the generator test in the link above. This test will only work if you polarize your generator FIRST.
Disconnect all wires from the generator. Ground the DF terminal and place your voltmeter between the D+ and ground. Only run it this way for just a few seconds to get a reading. It should be up in the 30v+ range. If this test is good, your generator is putting out the proper voltage. Suspect a problem in the VR.


followed generator polarization steps, generator didn't turn at all, gave it a spin and applied voltage with same result, but still getting continuity through the coil, i cant figure out whats going on there.
all wires were disconnected, and hooked up the way diagram said to.
should only be 12v like the battery tho, which is what i am getting,
But since the battery is pretty much hotwired to the generator at that point i dont see what im looking for there.
VR is brand new. Sad
but again no spinning, im gonna try to use some 10 or less
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billnye wrote:
followed generator polarization steps, generator didn't turn at all, gave it a spin and applied voltage with same result, but still getting continuity through the coil, i cant figure out whats going on there.
all wires were disconnected, and hooked up the way diagram said to.
should only be 12v like the battery tho, which is what i am getting,
But since the battery is pretty much hotwired to the generator at that point i dont see what im looking for there.
VR is brand new. Sad
but again no spinning, im gonna try to use some 10 or less


Huh? Confused
I understood the wires at the generator were disconnected and the VR is new. Everything else.... Confused
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

o.k. sorry its been a long time coming.

I got it registered and insured, drove it up to where i'm living, it overheated on the way, but thats discussion for another time.

so i broke down and just bought a new generator, polarized it (+ of batt to field on generator) got a spark and a little click from under the seat.
little generator light still on Sad

any other ideas on what could be causing it.
the battery dies if i go ~100 miles (can't start, but will run)
maybe i need to check all the wires involved, anyone have a full engine wire diagram?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
billnye
Samba Member


Joined: June 22, 2011
Posts: 21
Location: CA, USA
billnye is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

still no voltage on df or d+ (.3-.5v)
generator is pumping out voltage.
leads me to think i need another VR or maybe a new relay since that goes right after the vr.
anyway, still workin on this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 7388
Location: (West) Tokyo, Japan
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billnye wrote:
still no voltage on df or d+ (.3-.5v)
generator is pumping out voltage.

These two lines are almost contradictory statements.

If you follow the link above to Speedy Jim's site and follow the steps on "Generator Testing"... you connect a voltmeter between ground and the D+ terminal on the generator then with the engine running you ground the DF terminal for just a moment... what voltage do you read on the voltmeter? You might need to rev the engine. If it is below 30v, your generator is probably bad.
If you are getting above 30v, your generator is good and you should suspect your wiring or your VR.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD)
"stock" 1600 w/ 34 PICT-3 carb & S/A tranny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2014, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB