Trigger Wheels

supersuk · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: Trigger Wheels

Anybody interested in a trigger wheel for a megasquirt ECU specifically made to use on a Type 3 pancake motor? I have designed one that will fit onto the pulley with very little modifications. All you need are 4 bolts, 4 washers, a drill bit and a tap.

I'm going to have a shop make some for me, but if I bought just one the price is crazy! However, if a lot of people jump in with me it'll be a lot more reasonable.

The trigger wheel will mount to the front face of the pulley without blocking the fan. The mounting points will be where you see the small holes on the outer ring of the pulley. Just drill and tap the hole to fit a bolt. The trigger wheel itself will have 4 slots 90 degrees apart and can be adjusted about 20 degrees total. The VR sensor will be mounted through the timing hole on the black fan shroud.

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supaninja · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject:

Here's the thing too, you can use MS for ignition only if your carb'd too. It's cheaper to go the MS route and some gsxr coil packs ($10-20 for a set all day long on ebay) then any of the other distributorless kits. the key is the trigger wheel.

you could ask Mario over at http://www.thedubshop.net/ he might be interested in a bunch.
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supersuk · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject:

Thanks Supa, I'll check with Mario.
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KevinR · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:38 am Post subject:

How much for one of these? I am interested. Edis is cool...
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VW Fact #128: Benefits of the Type III: better visibility, more space for people and objects, improved comfort, better roadhandling, reduced oversteer, less sensitivity to cross-winds, and more power.

supaninja · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:43 am Post subject:

EDIS is old school, direct fire is where it's at. Wink

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Nick
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KevinR · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject:

Ok I am new to this... what is dirrect fire?
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VW Fact #128: Benefits of the Type III: better visibility, more space for people and objects, improved comfort, better roadhandling, reduced oversteer, less sensitivity to cross-winds, and more power.

supaninja · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject:

I'm using 4 of these bad boys for my GSXR COPs http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/bosch-bip373-coil-driver-mod-kit-p-230.html

megasquirt controls them directly, no edis module. I have an ignition cut rev limiter now, and just need to wire in a switch then i'll have two step launch control and flat shifting if I want. Simpler and cleaner then edis, plus more features.
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Nick
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supersuk · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject:

Direct fire is cool! Only thing is that it would be hard to adapt to the type 3 motors, since you need a way to hold them on. Supa's one is supa cool. haha

The cost of these will depend on how much people is willing to jump in. The more we have, the cheaper it will get. With a small production run, I wouldn't be surprised if we had to pay $60+. I may just bite the bullet and have a bunch made to get the prices down to the $60 range...I want to install my FI now!
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supersuk · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject:

OK, found a manufacturer that can cut a prototype for a decent price! Once I get the piece (about a month from now) I'll test fit it and show it online. Once I know it works, i'll be putting up a classified ad. Price should be approximately $50 + shipping.
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DAM Volks · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject:

nice this sounds promising, I'm interested.
Just hope that this pans out for all of us type 3 guys.

gtixpress · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject:

I'd be interested. I would love to convert over to EDIS or MS.
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supaninja · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject:

supersuk · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject:

I second Supa's recommendation. His method of using the Megasquirt to run direct fire or wasted spark will guarantee you get a nice spark! I myself will run wasted spark with the 4pin coil they sell on diyautotune.com
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KevinR · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject:

So, ballpark, what is that kinda setup going to cost me? I have a nice MSD 6A I am considering running with 009 and pertronix. can't get the big MSD billet dizzy in a type 3. A good friend of mine in my club (Rose City Volksters) is running EDIS and loves it. Robs parts from ford 4 cylinders at u pull it....
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VW Fact #128: Benefits of the Type III: better visibility, more space for people and objects, improved comfort, better roadhandling, reduced oversteer, less sensitivity to cross-winds, and more power.

supaninja · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:43 am Post subject:

Unassembled MS1 v3.0 is $200, you can build your own harness or buy one for about $67, if you use self igniting coils (like LS1/LS2 COPs) then you won't need the BIP373's. depending if you want coil on plugs or one dual coil and if your going new or used, also ebay skills come in handy. Any crank position sensor(VR sensor) can be made to work, you just have to decide which style you want. The Ford VR sensor and GSXR COPs that I'm running all use these connectors
http://rjminjectiontech.com/collections/pigtails-connectors/products/cop1-con

www.diyautotune.com
www.thedubshop.net

here's some more info on your options:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#singlecoil

I'm loving all these high tech posts popping up, Tram is probably losing sleep, "The old German stuff isn't good enough for these guys? Supa is an Arschloch!" lolololol, it's alright Tram, I'm not going to turn the t3 section into TOS. You guys will always have a place to discuss how to adjust MPS's and explain how to test fuel pressure. Very Happy

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JSMskater · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject:

supaninja · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject:

I'm going to do a bit of a overview since this this subject is a big unknown for the most part:

Megajolt is ign control only, I haven't played with it yet but from what i understand it's orgins are linked to megasquirt. I'm not going to discuss it anymore.

Megasquirt can do fuel and/or ign. there is three versions of MS; MS1, MS2, and MS3. For 99% of us MS1 is more then enough management, if you want to play with boost I really suggest at least MS2 or MS3. MS1 has three version v2.2, v3.0, and v3.57. v2.2 is an older pcb design, doesn't come with a few of the key features that the other 2 have and it doesn't have as robust of a ground plain design. for the most part 3.00 and 3.57 are the same, v3.00 is the pcb for the unassembled kit, and 3.57 is used for the assembled kit. Also it's noteworthy to mention that a ms1 v3.00/3.57 can easily be upgraded to ms2 or ms3 later on down the road. 3.00/3.57 have a low z flyback circuit already included as well as a VR conditioner circuit and it is a superior design, it's a no brainer spend the few extra bucks on the v3.0/3.57 kit.

I don't want to get to deep in this but I need to mention it so you can understand how to make this all work. depending on where you buy your MS from the processor will be already loaded with firmware. Most come with B&G's regular firmware, it's OK but for our purposes of controlling spark that will need to get upgraded to MSextra firmware. Don't worry, it's really easy to do and the firmware is free on MSextra's website. That also doubles the features you'll be able to use. As the old Nike slogan says "Just Do It!".

Now to business, the trigger wheel/VR sensor is just a tach in signal for MS. If you want to keep the stock ignition you could use a the (-) on the coil to do the same thing, but that can be a bit noisier signal. MS1 you are going to need a missing tooth so the MS knows when it is at TDC. MS2/3 you can do it a little crazier. Piledriver is using the bolt holes on the back of his flywheel as "teeth" and a modified 009 as the sync-pulse. He is also running full sequential fuel and spark. I'm too much of a simpleton to do that plus I am only running MS1.

Why run a trigger wheel? Easy, you can ditch the stock dizzy/coil and plug the hole. EDIS or direct fire is a piece of cake, and there is less noise with a properly insulated VR sensor. Oh ya, you can use a hall sensor instead of a VR sensor too. Hall sensors are a bit more robust and people swear by them, but most MS setups are using VR so it is really up to you what you want to get.

For ignition, you are going to be in a wasted spark configuration unless your full sequential. wasted spark is plenty good on a motor that redlines below 7,000rpms. EDIS used to be all the rage about 5 years ago, not so much anymore. depending on what coil/coils you end up running, self igniting or you need a coil driver. also ms1 v3.00 comes with one coil
driver I am not 100% sure but I think ms2/3 has more. doesn't matter, the BIP373 bosch coil drivers are inexpensive and damn near impossible to fry. The weaknesses of EDIS is you can't adjust the dwell, and you are stuck with that particular coil. Direct fire gives you a few more features but it doesn't have a limp home mode, I believe thats not needed in a direct fire setup if everything is installed correctly.

My brain hurts and i'm sure some of yours are too. There is a ton of info on megamanual.com, and msextra.com. Whatever you can imagine has already been done using MS, and the documentation is everywhere, so much it's overwhelming.
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Nick
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Blog of Doom http://supaninjanick.wordpress.com/

KevinR · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject:

Wow thanks for the great info.

Anybody see the new issue of Hot VW's? Besides the sweet Notch, it appears that CB Performance is getting into the direct fire game as well...
_________________
VW Fact #128: Benefits of the Type III: better visibility, more space for people and objects, improved comfort, better roadhandling, reduced oversteer, less sensitivity to cross-winds, and more power.

supaninja · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject:

ya it looks to be a full sequential setup since its got a trig wheel and a cam signal from a dizzy housing.
_________________
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Nick
Megasquirted Type 4 powered Notch http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Blog of Doom http://supaninjanick.wordpress.com/

JSMskater · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject:

so theoretically I can run a hall sensor type pick up inside a locked out distributor -- L-jet t1 engines have a hall sensor. would this work? seems like I could just take the distributor and sensor from a later t1 set up and run it as is... would that prevent me from doing a direct coil on plug set up like you have?
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