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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| EatACactus wrote: |
| Nice to see another project from someone in Mass! |
There seems to be a bunch of us out there, just hiding well I guess! Since I found my 65 Notch I have found at least 3 others in MA. just seems that not many people who have a VW around me make it out to the shows. With in a mile of my house I know of at least a dozen different vws, some are projects, some daily drivers.
I finally pulled the motor Saturday and started to pull the tin work off. It seems to be leaking from every seal possible. I don't have the space to break it all the way down at the moment where it wont get wet or pieces misplaced. So I pulled another one out that I know runs good and put that one in for now. I guess this week is supposed to be nice out weather wise so I'm hoping to be out side working on her all week so keep an eye out for updated and pictures!
(quote)notches rule
I'm a Squareback guy 
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy  " |
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Well Its been a while since I've updated on here. The weathers been crappy out for the last month and I've moved inside and started finishing up other projects around the house so I haven't been working on the Notch for some time now. the weathers starting to warm up so I'm hoping to get back outside this week.
I've been on here doing some searching for some ideas and I have decided that I am going to go ahead (after tossing the idea around and looking them up on here) and do the type 4 conversion  .
I have the 412 that is complete and other then it needing fuel injectors runs great. even has a new muffler on it from when I got the car! The 412 is just sitting there and if and when I do end up restoring her I am not going to need the drive-line for what I have planned .
I want to keep it the stock fuel injection set up too. I just need to figure out where to mount the computer and the relays. I am going to use the entire wiring harness from the 412 also since it appears to still be somewhat intact and the Notch's has had some, well, PO "improvements." This should also help make the conversion somewhat easier I hope with wiring the relays and stuff back up.
I am also going to do a short axle conversion. I traded a buddy of mine a trans and tubes (from a square that I parted out) for his short tubes from his 65 bug. I am also planning on swapping the trans out for one that I have with the 3.8 ratio. The only question I have on that is will the IRS trans fit in a SA, it looks like the only difference is the side covers and axles, but that just what I see looking at it. I have been trying to search on here but I couldn't find anything on it. I want to keep the car the stock SA set up as I want everything to stay somewhat "bolt on" so it could go back to stock if wanted. The trans is from a super beetle according to the code on it. so I know I will have to change the nose cone.
From what I can tell, (please correct me if I am wrong and if you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it  ) the type 4 conversion is going to need the following:
-flywheel and clutch from the old 1600 motor (the 412 is an Auto)
-the engine hanger brackets welded into the body (which I can cut from the 412 as they will not be needed)
-the wiring harness, computers, and relays for the fuel injection set up (also all able to be taken from the 412)
-Also what is the piece that needs to be trimmed on the tin work in order to fit in the car?
-and the air intake rubber adapted to fit the type 3
Also, has anybody used the fuel injectors that are offered at advance? they have 3 different companies selling them. Mine the rubbers are rotted on them, plus they have been sitting out of the motor for some time now so I do not feel comfortable using them. I did see the post on how to change the rubber hose.
As soon as I get the camera working again I will start the deconstruction and post more pics up.
I've been trying to research this conversion as best as I can before I started doing it, but when you type in "Type 4 Conversion" you get every post that has the words "type, 4, and conversion" listed in it  , even if the topic has nothing to do with what I am looking for, so its hard to pick out the info I do need. If someone has 1.7L type 4 in their signature it pulls that up in the search feature even if they are posting about headlights for example  ,plus it seems like most everybody doing this conversion is not running the stock 1.7L with the FI like I want to.
Anyway that's just an update as what my plans are now with her. I finally got my winter rat back running again so I can have the Notch sitting for a little while. Plus there's still salt in the roads here so having her stay sitting safe in the driveway isn't a bad thing!
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| T3+4_Mike wrote: |
Well Its been a while since I've updated on here. The weathers been crappy out for the last month and I've moved inside and started finishing up other projects around the house so I haven't been working on the Notch for some time now. the weathers starting to warm up so I'm hoping to get back outside this week.
I've been on here doing some searching for some ideas and I have decided that I am going to go ahead (after tossing the idea around and looking them up on here) and do the type 4 conversion .
I have the 412 that is complete and other then it needing fuel injectors runs great. even has a new muffler on it from when I got the car! The 412 is just sitting there and if and when I do end up restoring her I am not going to need the drive-line for what I have planned .
I want to keep it the stock fuel injection set up too. I just need to figure out where to mount the computer and the relays. I am going to use the entire wiring harness from the 412 also since it appears to still be somewhat intact and the Notch's has had some, well, PO "improvements." This should also help make the conversion somewhat easier I hope with wiring the relays and stuff back up.
I am also going to do a short axle conversion. I traded a buddy of mine a trans and tubes (from a square that I parted out) for his short tubes from his 65 bug. I am also planning on swapping the trans out for one that I have with the 3.8 ratio. The only question I have on that is will the IRS trans fit in a SA, it looks like the only difference is the side covers and axles, but that just what I see looking at it. I have been trying to search on here but I couldn't find anything on it. I want to keep the car the stock SA set up as I want everything to stay somewhat "bolt on" so it could go back to stock if wanted. The trans is from a super beetle according to the code on it. so I know I will have to change the nose cone.
From what I can tell, (please correct me if I am wrong and if you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it ) the type 4 conversion is going to need the following:
-flywheel and clutch from the old 1600 motor (the 412 is an Auto)
-the engine hanger brackets welded into the body (which I can cut from the 412 as they will not be needed)
-the wiring harness, computers, and relays for the fuel injection set up (also all able to be taken from the 412)
-Also what is the piece that needs to be trimmed on the tin work in order to fit in the car?
-and the air intake rubber adapted to fit the type 3
Also, has anybody used the fuel injectors that are offered at advance? they have 3 different companies selling them. Mine the rubbers are rotted on them, plus they have been sitting out of the motor for some time now so I do not feel comfortable using them. I did see the post on how to change the rubber hose.
As soon as I get the camera working again I will start the deconstruction and post more pics up.
I've been trying to research this conversion as best as I can before I started doing it, but when you type in "Type 4 Conversion" you get every post that has the words "type, 4, and conversion" listed in it , even if the topic has nothing to do with what I am looking for, so its hard to pick out the info I do need. If someone has 1.7L type 4 in their signature it pulls that up in the search feature even if they are posting about headlights for example ,plus it seems like most everybody doing this conversion is not running the stock 1.7L with the FI like I want to.
Anyway that's just an update as what my plans are now with her. I finally got my winter rat back running again so I can have the Notch sitting for a little while. Plus there's still salt in the roads here so having her stay sitting safe in the driveway isn't a bad thing! |
Ok, lets start with the transaxle 1st. Is the IRS trans a single side cover? If so, you can't convert it to SA. Sorry, you need the dual side cover trans to be able to do the swap.
Now to the engine. The "engine hanger bar" can be used like it is, just add a couple of brackets off to the sides that would attach to the bumper mounts, and it should be to go. Since you've got a SA trans and car, you've also got the forks under the trans. Those forks also help support the engine.
Now to the questions you listed.
You'll need a 200mm t-4 conversion flywheel, not a t-3 1600, as the t-4 flywheel bolts on. Get the bolts too, as the AT uses different ones (AT specials). The clutch can be used though.
Leave the hangers in the 412, as they won't help you (it's an IRS thing).
You're probably going to have to put the ECU under the rear seat, and blast a hole for the harness. I only say that, because your car never had FI. You'll also have to modify the fuel tank for a return line, and add a return fuel line for the FI (It needs a supply and a return).
The left rear engine tin needs a slight trimming, only about 1/2 inch on the corner radius.
If you're not using a NLA T-4 wagon only boot and adapter, then look up Nates conversion piece that starts out as a modified T-3 piece, and uses the more commonly found t-3 boot.
For searching, try t-4 into a t-3. That should bring up a couple of threads. Nick should also be along any second to give his thoughts as well, since he like to push the T-4 engine combo.
Good luck with it, and I hope you've got some spare cash laying around, as you're going to need it. I hope this helps.
P.S. I've got a 1.7L 914 engine in my Square-vert. It's also got FI on it too. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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That ok its probably because I'm keeping it stock
I just went out and looked and of course the trans I wanted to use is in fact the single side cover, so I guess I'll scrap that plan. I just figured since I had It all apart and if it would work I would swap it in. I never looked that close at both of the spare ones I had to notice that one had 2 covers and one had one cover.
I came across that site while searching last night, there is alot of good info in there I think that I am going to do what they did with the T-3 fan shroud cut and welded to the adapter plate. I think it looks the cleanest from what I have seen so far, plus I have a couple motors that are junk that I can steal a shroud from.
Under the rear seat is where I was thinking for the relays but will that be okay for the computer? Don't they need to be kept where they can be cooled down? I always thought thats why they were kept inside the fender.
I also like the engine mount they made. I don't know what I was thinking with the mounts being cut from the 412 to be grafted into the Notch.  (not enough sleep and to much computer time) I guess after looking at so many pictures with the hanger bar installed in an IRS chassis I just didn't think about the SA already carrying the weight. The set up they had made allows a stock looking set up with out a major body mod, which is what I like!
I forgot to mention the fuel tank. I have a late model tank that I was planning on (VERY carefully) cutting the bottom half off of and grafting it into the top half of junk early tank (bottom rotted) that I have. I had read in a post while searching a fuel injection swap for my Fasty and I found that I need to do this for the baffles inside the tank.
The only major curve ball so to say right now is the flywheel. Worst thing is I should have known that as me and a buddy of mine have been gone over that before with his bug. I have a lead on what I was told was a type 4 motor set up for a dune buggy so We'll see how that turns out. Hopefully it will have what I need on it! If not I found a couple flywheels on ebay and another site I came across.
And what do you mean allot of cash lying around  my pockets are already inside out 
I'm going to pull her apart tomorrow and start cleaning up the engine bay. I need to do a few patches to the air intake boxes and I want to wash and paint everything while its open.
Btw, I saw the pictures of you Squarevert
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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supaninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010
Posts: 4020
Location: houston
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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For the flywheel you can go several routes: Buy from Jake but he only sells the FW with a KEP clutch, buy a FW from KEP directly, or buy one of Richards http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/404-200/type-4-flywheel/T-4+200mm+Flywheel (it's chinese but he QC's it). I know it's tempting to get one off ebay, that's what I did and the tolerances for the flange that mates to the crank are too loose, someone else recently bought one and the tolerance was too tight, it wouldn't even slide onto the crank.
Since your keeping the SA subframe (you'll have to weld mounts for the IRS control arms), you got 2 options: weld some solid hangers and use a bus style rear hanger (i have no idea what 412 rear hangers look like, they might be the same), or put a kafer cup style brace on it and forget about a rear hanger. The SA frame horns are not stout enough to support the weight and torque of a type 4 motor alone.
As far as injectors, you might just need to send them off to get professionally cleaned and flow tested, then use some standard 5/16" fuel line cut into little stubbies. That's what I did with my stock inj when I was using the L jet setup.
For the feed and return lines you'll want 5/16" for both, then everything will jive, get about 20ft of 5/16" standard fuel line, I recommend Jegs, and only use the fuel injection style hose clamps, you will need a crap-ton of them. Grafting the late style fuel tank bottom in is smart.
sorry I was late Bob, I was out cruising the Notch with one of the local clubs
_________________
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/chucky1974/ninja.gif
Nick
Megasquirted Type 4 powered Notch http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Blog of Doom http://supaninjanick.wordpress.com/ |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| supaninja wrote: |
Since your keeping the SA subframe (you'll have to weld mounts for the IRS control arms), you got 2 options: weld some solid hangers and use a bus style rear hanger (i have no idea what 412 rear hangers look like, they might be the same), or put a kafer cup style brace on it and forget about a rear hanger. The SA frame horns are not stout enough to support the weight and torque of a type 4 motor alone.
For the feed and return lines you'll want 5/16" for both, then everything will jive, get about 20ft of 5/16" standard fuel line, I recommend Jegs, and only use the fuel injection style hose clamps, you will need a crap-ton of them. Grafting the late style fuel tank bottom in is smart.
sorry I was late Bob, I was out cruising the Notch with one of the local clubs |
Why would he need to add IRS control arms, when he's doing a short axle SA conversion? From what I read in his post, he's keeping the SA, but wanted to use the 3.88 IRS single side cover trans (for taller gearing on the highway), and those 2 things don't go together (as you need the double sided trans case for SA). Most of the SA t-4 powered cars I've seen, only have a rear engine support bar in them, due to the extra weight of the t-4, and not being able to use the upper engine hanger. I've seen Dan Zink's car in person, and his rear support bar set up is slick, and completely reversable (to return it back to stock). I don't really think he's going to drag race it (not Dan, as I was using his car as an example of a nice SA t-4 conversion). I think he just wanted a little more umph. I mean it's only a 1.7L.
One question though on the SA transaxle. Has it been ground out and converted for 12 volt use yet? Just asking, because it'll need to be.
Yeah, Nate's fan bellows conversion is one of the slickest I've seen yet. It also makes use of easier to find parts. If I didn't already have the NLA boot, I'd do up one of his (I've already printed out the template).
As for cooling the ECU, I don't think that's why they put it the the cooling passages, I think it was more of a space/packaging deal. If you look at a t-4 (the car), you'll find the ECU behind either the rear passenger door panel, or under the rear seat, because that's where they had room. They also used a relay board to put all of the relays in 1 spot, rather than scattering them around the car (like they do on a t-3).
I used to have a link of Tomnotch's 64 T-4 powered Notch build (his home page). I can't find it at the moment, but it showed how Tom had the FI cup grafted to the bottom of his fuel tank (along the same idea you have). Yes, the baffles are helpful, especially when the fuel level drops below 1/4 tank, but aren't totally nesseccary if you use a surge tank (like Ray recommends). The idea of the baffles or the surge tank, are mainly to keep the fuel pump primed while being both below a 1/4 tank, and while taking sharp turns.
Well, I only mention having some cash, because some of the parts you don't have can get expensive in a hurry (probably why it took me over 3 years to do a t-4 conversion), and you're either going to fabricate some stuff, or pay someone to do it (which will cost some cash). And if you send you injectors out for cleaning, that'll cost $$ too. Putting it as simple as I can, it's not a cheap conversion, and t-4 parts aren't cheap either.
Like Nick said, you're going to need 2 5/16 fuel lines minimum, and you might want to abandon the 1/4 inch line in the tunnel when you do. Look at how I ran my fuel lines on my 71 Notch (use the "been busy" link), as that's what I did for that car, since it was so rusty. I didn't want to take a chance with the in the tunnel lines being as rusty as the rest of the car. Yeah, I probably could have re-ran them inside, but IF I had a leak, how would I fix it? It's easier to do that from the outside.
Oh, and Nick, No worries mate, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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supaninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010
Posts: 4020
Location: houston
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Alright so I went outside to start taking pictures of the 412 and took one pic, then the camera died  needless to say I wasn't happy.
So anyway, I did manage to get a pic of the engine support bar and hanger set up.
Looking at the photo of the one Dan Zink used I'm going to say that the bar is the same for every T-4 motor application? I do like the set up he has and I think I'm going to copy it, just I have a trailer hitch on mine so I am going to have to get a little more creative I think.
I went and saw my buddy today and he said that he was heading over to the guys house to pick up the motor after he was done working. I'm going to try to head over to his house tomorrow while hes on lunch and take a look at it and also pick up the short axles.
I am doing it for a little more umph  , mainly because I was doing alot of highway driving when I was working, and the job that I'm looking into right now is going to be quite the ride, so I want something reliable and strong enough to keep up on the up down windy highway we have here. Plus I want the umph for towing as I plan on using her to tow a trailer for the swap meets at the shows or for camping. (and a spare parts trailer if I make it to the invasion )
Yes the trans has been cleared out already for a 12v flywheel. They motor I had in it to get it driving was from a 67 squareback. I have also already swapped everything else needed to be for 12vs too.
I will be honest when I say the 412 was rolled into the back yard, partially taken apart, and then abandoned. After pulling the street signs, err, I mean floors, out of it and realizing captain spray foam owned the car it got left to the side. I bought it because I never seen one before,(and when you come across an add posted that said 1973 vw 4 door you got to go check it out ) then got it home and was like now what do I do. I never really looked to much at where anything was mounted. I really always thought that the computers were mounted in the fenders of the T-3s for cooling purposes. I guess under the rear seat is the best space for it then! it is just kind of wasted space anyway in a way.
I knew this was going to be a costly and a little bit challenging conversion. I can draw up and make the brackets and what not that I might need, but welding it all up so I would trust it I will have to have my buddy do it when he has the time. (he co-owns a body shop in town and we try to help each other out the best we can when we can.) I did figure though since I already had the motor and the complete donor car I would already have the biggest expense and most of the little ones taken care of. money is a little tight right now as I have not been working since last February. I'm trying to use what I have as much as I can. Plus I figured since I plan on taking it all apart anyway to clean her up now would be the best time to bite the bullet and do the swap. And hopefully I can have it done in time for the shows the spring!
About the flywheel, I know I need the conversion one, and I read that since I have an Auto engine, I need to have the flywheel modified to have a pilot bearing installed unless I buy the one from KEP as it says the modification has already been done? I am going to trust what you said Supa, I kinda figured the Ebay ones being the cheapest prices were to good to be true. will that one from Richard need to be modified too or is it already done?
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/flywheel.htm
As for fuel injectors where would I be able to send them off to get cleaned and tested, and what do you think that would roughly cost? I found ones at advance for $34 each plus a core, but they are not Bosch, and I don't know if they are any good. What do you think would be a wiser more cost effective choice?
Bobnotch I couldn't find a picture of what you did with the fuel lines? I honestly wasn't reading the posts I was scanning the pictures so I must have missed it. I am going to go back and look again and this time and read them again. (I just spent 3 days reading the entire write up last week) I had bought the 7mm blue gas line for the 412 a few years ago now, and bought all the clamps I needed back then, but I don't know if its still good so if the 5/16 will work I'll be buying more. I was told unless it was the 7mm it would leak, so I found it at a show and bought it.
Oh and Supa, when your the one carrying the needed information, you are never late unless you don't ever show up! Its up to the one asking for help to make sure he's there on time! I'd much rather be out cruising right now too
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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supaninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010
Posts: 4020
Location: houston
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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All the conversion FW's should have the hole opened up for a gland nut bearing, the stock type 4 FW's are the only ones that have the smaller hole.
Looking at that pic of the engine bar, it looks different then a bus brace. I don't know if all the type 4 cars use the same bar Ray Greenwood would know that answer.
If that motor is good the conversion should be relatively cheap. Mine went over budget since I had to source new heads and had them rebuilt...friggin $$$. Also I went a different route with my EFI so that costed a few more dollars. Core, mild build, everything for the EFI and ignition...complete turnkey mild 2L was a whole lot cheaper then buying a freshly built mild 1776 type 3 long block, it's apples and oranges and I know my type 4 motor will out live a 1776 type 4 motor
ninja edit- the blue hose is brake line hose, DON'T PUT FUEL THROUGH IT! 5/16" won't leak, and the cool german braided fuel line hates ethanol blended fuel and will dry out and leak.
_________________
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/chucky1974/ninja.gif
Nick
Megasquirted Type 4 powered Notch http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Blog of Doom http://supaninjanick.wordpress.com/ |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Good points Nick. When I saw that "blue" hose, the first thing I thought was brake fluid. Although, I think you ment your t-4 will last longer than a 1776 T-3 engine.
OP, I took a look thru my Gallery, and didn't see a picture of the new fuel lines, so I made a mistake in thinking I had taken some pics of it. I didn't. Sorry about that.
I do that that hanger bar will do what you want though.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| supaninja wrote: |
All the conversion FW's should have the hole opened up for a gland nut bearing, the stock type 4 FW's are the only ones that have the smaller hole.
Looking at that pic of the engine bar, it looks different then a bus brace. I don't know if all the type 4 cars use the same bar Ray Greenwood would know that answer.
If that motor is good the conversion should be relatively cheap. Mine went over budget since I had to source new heads and had them rebuilt...friggin $$$. Also I went a different route with my EFI so that costed a few more dollars. Core, mild build, everything for the EFI and ignition...complete turnkey mild 2L was a whole lot cheaper then buying a freshly built mild 1776 type 3 long block, it's apples and oranges and I know my type 4 motor will out live a 1776 type 4 motor
ninja edit- the blue hose is brake line hose, DON'T PUT FUEL THROUGH IT! 5/16" won't leak, and the cool german braided fuel line hates ethanol blended fuel and will dry out and leak. |
Sorry I just went and checked after reading this. It is 7mm fuel line hose. I don't know why but I thought it was blue, it isn't, but more of a greyish color. I guess I wont use it now knowing that the ethanol is going to eat at it. I guess that it why I've heard people say you would have to change them every year or two.
Okay so to the FW, if this engine my buddy is getting doesn't have one already on it, I'll be ordering one from Richard i think. Is Jake? on the Samba or does he have a website? And ok, I wasn't sure about the conversion, by what I read on the site it sounded like they all needed it unless you bought the one they listed.
It was hard to tell if the engine bar was different from the pics they had ( http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/type3_pics/bracket.jpg ) It says they used a bus hanger just shortened an inch on each side. The one on the 412 does look like it is the same as the one on the T-4 Motor my buddy pulled out of a 914.
The motor that is in the 412 runs like a top thankfully . I drove her on and off the trailer when I got her, and around the yard a little bit. (never got her out of first but the trans went into gear nice and firm and didn't slip or hesitate!) The rubber lines were rotted on the fuel injectors themselves so I parked it and left it so it wouldn't light up!
(I think that was one of the reasons why they sold it, they got sick of dumping money into it. They had just put a new exhaust, 4 new tires, and new fuel lines in it ) Plus she was quite rusty and had alot of the typical PO half ass repairs . I had no clue what I wanted to do with her so I never bothered to fix the leaks. I have now decided what I want to do with her, not trying to let the cat out of the bag so to say, but one 412 + one early 80's Jetta Diesel = well just have to wait and see . Lets just say I won't need the stock motor for it! Anyway back to the Notchback  I do know off the top of my head that I will need to change the TB rubber hoses, plus I want to clean up and paint the TB, the tin work, the heater boxes, and the muffler.
If I can get a camera working long enough to finish the pre-deconstruction pics of the 412 I'll start taking her apart this week. I want to wait for the pics so I can document what I take apart so I can go back and look at what to put back together and where so hopefully it will take less time as I wont be wasting it having to spend time looking online for the info! Plus I can document it in this thread for other to see Same for the Notchback.
And Bobnotch, don't worry about it. I thought it was just an over caffeinated lack of sleep mistake on my part , but at least I know now I don't need to search for it anymore! How did you run them though, did you run them under the center tube or did you follow the outer rocker? or did you go inside the car? And I do like them being ran outside the center tube to, I haven't seen any signs of leaks yet but it still bothers me I can't see the one in the Notch.
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| T3+4_Mike wrote: |
The rubber lines were rotted on the fuel injectors themselves so I parked it and left it so it wouldn't light up!
And Bobnotch,... How did you run them though, did you run them under the center tube or did you follow the outer rocker? or did you go inside the car? And I do like them being ran outside the center tube to, I haven't seen any signs of leaks yet but it still bothers me I can't see the one in the Notch. |
If you can, pull the injectors and soak them in diesel fuel. This will help keep the internal seals pliable and ready for use. It'll also help clean some of the junk that might be in them. I did this when I bought a box of them from a seller a few years ago. I ended up testing them later, and found 16 of them were good.
Mike, I ran them along the bottom of the tunnel. I used adel clamps to secure them. Adel clamps are metal clamps with a band of rubber around them. I got them from McMaster Carr (a bag of 100 for 10 bucks). I drilled and tapped the bottom plate (near the edges of the tunnel, so the screws would be inside the tunnel), and set my lines along the edge where the pan halfs join the tunnel. I put my short ends of line near the rear subframe front mount (the bolt on cross plate). This kept it tucked up nicely to the floor (the floor kicks up in this area to create a nice pocket), but still allows access to it if I need it. Up front, I gave the lines a little upward bend, so I could install my hoses (I did something similar in the rear). I used 3 - 5 foot lengths of 5/16ths steel line, and 2 couplers to join them. On my car, the floors had reinforcements that also helped protect the lines in the front section. I don't know IF your floors have them or not though, as those "ribs" were added by VW in 68.
Something to keep in mind, you're still going to have to check and possibly reset the crankshaft end play when you swap out the flywheel.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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supaninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010
Posts: 4020
Location: houston
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, sorry I just got time to sit down and get online. I had to do a radiator in my Grandfathers truck, then I had to tear our dryer apart and get it working again.
Bobnotch, I'm going to do what you did with the gas lines. I like the idea of those clips and I am going to use those on the brake line inside the car to I think, as I don't like the way the new line is chafing, plus a couple of the clips are missing/ broken. I'm going to look out in the shed tomorrow as I think I still have a coil of 5/16 line from when I did the gas lines on my old chevy, and I know I never used it all. I may even have those clips laying around from work too! I don't have those reinforcements down the center of the pan halves.
I'll pick up a gallon or two of diesel next time I hit the other side of town, I actually found 4 injectors in a box of stuff that came with a Fasty that I parted out and cut up that I will throw in there too along with the ones from the 69 Fasty. I'll pull the ones from the 412 tomorrow.
Supa I put a towel over the keyboard before i clicked on the link Your not kidding the type 4 stuff is expensive! I'm glad I have to be frugal on cash as I could see myself spending alot of money on that site I'm going to make a list tomorrow while I'm taking pics and taking the 412 apart. (O ya, got a new camera today its charging now.) I'll sit down and look at what I need right away and the most expensive stuff and order it this weekend. I think I'm going to go with the FW from here and use one of the clutches I have at the house.
http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/404-200/type-4-flywheel/T-4+200mm+Flywheel
That motor turned out to be a 1.7L CB block, and not a 1.8 like the guy said it was. It is only missing the tin work though, and turns freely! And it was also going into a bus not a buggy like I had thought. I should still be able to take the FW bolts from it though and replace them later if my buddy ends up doing something with it.
I looked up the price of new, well remanufactured fuel injectors. That will definitely be cheaper to send them out to the place for the $80? and then replace the o rings if needed. Since all they do is take the cores and just do what that guys is doing, and then add new rubber lines anyway
I'll post a couple pics of the donor car and motor tomorrow if I can get them on here. Its supposed to be 55 or so here tomorrow so I plan on being outside all day working
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| T3+4_Mike wrote: |
Bobnotch, I'm going to do what you did with the gas lines. I like the idea of those clips and I am going to use those on the brake line inside the car to I think, as I don't like the way the new line is chafing, plus a couple of the clips are missing/ broken. I'm going to look out in the shed tomorrow as I think I still have a coil of 5/16 line from when I did the gas lines on my old chevy, and I know I never used it all. I may even have those clips laying around from work too! I don't have those reinforcements down the center of the pan halves.
I'll pick up a gallon or two of diesel next time I hit the other side of town, I actually found 4 injectors in a box of stuff that came with a Fasty that I parted out and cut up that I will throw in there too along with the ones from the 69 Fasty. I'll pull the ones from the 412 tomorrow. |
I didn't know if your pans had been replaced, or if the entire pan was replaced when I mentioned the ribs. I was looking at that area yesterday on my t-34, and saw that it would still work just fine, as theter seems to be an indent along the tunnel edges.
You might want to seperate the 2 sets of injectors, as you know the 412 injectors did work. I only say that, because the 412 might be l-jet, while the 69 fasty is d-jet, and I don't know if the injectors are the same.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just a quick update with some pics. I got a little bit done today and found some stuff buried in the sheds that I will need. While putting wood in the stove tonight I happened to notice a bucket covered up, and found that it was oil from the furnace! Same as diesel fuel, so tomorrow I'll I'll put the injectors in a couple of those glad ware cheapo containers and let them soak. I'll do one for each set.
Bobnotch the computer is located in the same spot as it would be in the T-3s. I never noticed it before as I really never looked at much more then the rust and the injectors.
Looks like spaghetti definitely going to have to clean some of that up
Back when I first got her, you can still the the "floors" installed
I've spent most of the night looking at what it would take to swap the entire set up, engine and trans and convert to IRS. I have a couple of spare SA sub frames that I can cut up and use. But once I get it all apart I'll make the decision if I want to or not. I've found a few nice build threads on for the swaps so I'll study those. Just the only thing I still need to look for is if I can use the shifter and cables from the 412 or if I will need to find a T-3 for a donor. I already need to make an engine mount anyway. I know I'll need to add the tube for the shift cable.
The tarp over the 412 is still frozen to the ground Its buried right now in the backyard but I was able enough to get to the engine. I need to pull it out so I can drop the engine out, and I have a couple buddies coming over friday to help so I can just pull it all together and be able to move it after.
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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You planning to run the automatic transmission in your car?
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https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You planning to run the automatic transmission in your car? |
That's what I'm wondering too. I only say that, because you're going to open an entirely new set of problems, and the car will have to be modified (unreversable) just to use the AT.  This is because you can't the SA rear sub, as the AT is too wide (hence 1 of the reasons for VW designing the IRS set up). You WILL need an IRS rear subframe to use the AT, then you'll need to fabricate some engine hangers that will need to be welded to the body. You'll also have to reinforce the body side mountings, and cut part of the front "firewall" tin to clear the AT dip stick. These are just the right off hand things that I know about. This doesn't even take in the mods to the pan just to use the AT shifter.
Edit, I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a ton of work to do. It would be easier to use a "late" pan (69 to 73), or even an AT pan, and then do the mods to the body. No matter how you look at it, it can't be done without it being an unreversalble mod (definitely not a bolt in swap).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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T3+4_Mike
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004
Posts: 71
Location: North Central Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I am "thinking" about running the automatic from the 412
right now its just an option I'm looking at.
I was planning to use it for another project, but I have a full chassis from a 72 fastback. I would definitely rather modify that to fit the Auto then the original chassis to the Nocthback. (I wasn't planning on running the IRS so I wasn't thinking about using it until now). I already need to make up some sort of engine hanger for the T-4 motor anyway so I could just cut out what I need from the 412 and weld them into the Notch body.
When I said I wanted to keep it mostly bolt on it was for IF I did end up selling the car, or change my mind about how I had it set up. It could go back to stock without much trouble. But If I build it it will probably stay that way for a while anyway!
The Fastback chassis needs a passenger side front pan half, which the ones in the notch are good so I can use that. The front beam has less then 100 miles on it . They changed it, drove it to the store and back, and parked the car due to a bad oil leak. I will need to change the front spindles out for the ones I have on the Notchback now so I can keep the early front calipers and then just swap the rest of the new brake parts over as the 412 rear drums are the same as a T-3 anyway.
As I said, its just an option I'm looking a right now. I'm just trying to figure out what would be the best thing to do cost wise (meaning what I already have at the house to use and what would need to be bought for each way) time wise and then for comfort wise. Plus I like to go the routes less traveled so to say, I mean, there are been allot of nice T-4 conversion, but when was the last one done that was a full swap with the Auto too !
Before I fully commit to this Idea I still need to spend some time on here and see if I will be able to use the T-4 shifter and cables. If I cant then I'll scrap the idea all together. Altho I suppose I could always make it fit . I Know I will need an Auto pedal assembly from a T-3 and I already found a couple for sale.
_________________
1 rusty low vin-ed 1967 squareback- very long restoration project
1973 412 4-door sedan, basket case to say the least
1967 fastback, rat rod build
1969 fastback,
1965 Notchback, The mother's summer car now! http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477439
1986 Jetta Diesel 5spd, Was the beater, now currently undergoing an overhaul
1995 Chevrolet Caprice, The daily driver and tow rig
"You say it's rotted out, I say its weight reduction, better fuel economy " |
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