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Overheated, now what?
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ryyanking
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Location: Seattle, Wa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Okay folks,

1974 1800cc Type IV engine 009 with a single progressive weber.

I've been trying to stave off the inevitable for some time now. I bought my van with 70k on it, knew nothing except to check the oil, and drove it around until getting it looked at by a trusted mechanic who said it needed a rebuild.

I was in grad school and didn't have 4k+ so i did the next best thing and did a top end rebuild myself. Mostly because I felt like I needed to learn about how these things work if I'm going to drive one. This worked well for the time being and got compression (and power) back to a normal level. My plan was to have this last a year or two while I saved up to do a subaru build, which I feel like is the best scenario since its heavy not very aerodynamic hightop camper.

Anyway today I was driving to from Seattle to Tri-cities to see the girl as I've done before, except today it was 100 degrees out. Goal was to get it to Ellensberg and let it cool down. I survived Snoqualime pass okay, but noticed I had to shift into 2nd and not just 3rd to get over it. Then on the hills right before ellensberg same thing, but when coming down the hill I still didn't have power to accelerate back up to 55. I heard a nose that sounded like a back-fire (but could have been something else) and then i let off the gas, both lights came on (oil pressure and turn signal) just as they would when you run out of gas. Came to the side of the road and engine was hot and had some white-clear smoke coming out of the hatch. Let it cool down for an hour and still wouldn't start. Nice fellow stopped and helped me make sure that I have poweto the distributor and reset the point gap. Our take away was that it just turns over to easily and likely doesn't have enough compression to get started.

Got it towed to ellensberg and will probably get it towed back to Seattle tomorrow.
I know this will likely be an expensive lesson to learn, and that I pushed it too hard. Probably more from weight than speed as I went 60 most the way. But what are the next steps? Is there anything besides a full engine rebuild that it could be? Piston rings? Or will I just not know until I dive into taking the engine apart?

I'm just wondering if its worth the time to get it to hobble along while I save for subaru-swap or rebuild.

Thanks,
Ry
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Damn, that's a harsh expensive lesson to learn, and the outcome doesn't sound good.

Start with a valve adjustment and see if the compression comes back, anything more than that will require an engine drop and likely some deep parts replacement to correct, fingers crossed for you.
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my59
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Start with compression test as is, then set valves and redo, to see what changes.
Then I would pull the rockers off and put a straight edge on the ends of the valve stems to see if there are sunk seats.
Also put an oil pressure gauge on and see what it is cranking over.
Then drain the oil and look for bearing material in it. Grey swirls or silvery glitter is not what you want to see.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Air cooled engines aren't all that fragile as some would like you to think. I have pulled the grades over the Cascades thousands of times over the years with both Type1 and Tpye2 engines and they seem to handle it very well. Had a friend that worked year around at a ski area and made a 5000' climb daily in her Bug for over 20 years and never once had engine trouble. We are talking several hundred thousand miles here.

If a VW engine is built well, tuned right, and the cooling system is A-1 it is really hard to get them to overheat. However the first moment you sense a loss of power you need to shut them down and find out what it wrong. A lot of damage can be done in just a few miles of driving once the engine has told you it isn't happy.
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ryyanking
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Thanks busdaddy,

I had done a valve adjustment last week in prep for this trip, and even in just a few hundred miles they were already super tight. Does running it hot tighten the valves? Anyway, did a valve adjustment and still didn't start. Continues to turn over quickly which I'm assuming is a lost of compression until I get my compression gauge from back home.

wildthings, I wish I had a engine that was built properly and cooling was A-1. I did the top end rebuild with the Wilson manual and the Raby bug me video and while I care a lot, I'm still on the beginner side of mechanics, and it was only a top end build, no idea how the short blocks was. Cooling system was better than when i bought it (I replaced missing tin, new engine seal, etc), but it was still missing the alternator adjustment cover, and a couple of rubber grommets for wires.

So it seems now I'll have an expensive chance to do it right. I don't have a garage or place to work on it anymore, so it looks like I'm going to have a local mechanic do it for me.

However, isn't a bug and a a camper bus quite different? Just in terms of weight + aerodynamics. This is probably a question for a different topic, but do you think a well built, tuned, and cooled, type IV in a heavy high-top is a good long term solution for cascade mountain driving?
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

ryyanking wrote:

I had done a valve adjustment last week in prep for this trip, and even in just a few hundred miles they were already super tight.


That is a really bad sign. For future reference that's your Bus telling you "hey don't drive me any more til you figure out WTF is going on here."

But yeah let's get the compression test numbers in and we'll go from there.
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ryyanking
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

Okay, so Wagnschmitt and Peace Vans are both booked out for a month plus. Anybody know of another place near Seattle? I don't own a driveway so I don't know where to tow this too to even start checking the rest of these things, let alone start fixing it. As you have to move the car every 72 hours with street parking in Seattle. Car storage places I've called say it has to be in running condition to take. Asking friends with driveways, but its looking grim.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

You will know more when you are able to test compression. In my experience, pushing a bus and overheating it has resulted in burned valves resulting in a gradual loss of compression as I have continued to flog it. The valves seem to be the first thing to go. If you only rebuilt the top end at 70k, then the bottom end will probably need attention too. If you want to continue the aircooled route, then starting fresh and rebuilding everything would be a good plan. If you want to go the Subie swap route, this might be the right time. Get yourself situated so you are not making this decision in a hurry. BEst of luck.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Overheated, now what? Reply with quote

ryyanking wrote:
....... I heard a nose that sounded like a back-fire (but could have been something else) and then i let off the gas, both lights came on (oil pressure and turn signal) just as they would when you run out of gas..........

In the short term have a look at the plastic rubbing block on your points and see if the points gap has closed up, even a burnt out engine should try to run a little.
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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