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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: Won't idle or run when warm... |
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I have a 76 2.0 FI that recently changed a bad coil in as well as a fuel filter. I broke down on the road a month ago when my BWD coil crapped out on me. I replaced it with a Bosch, but still can't say she's running right.
Since putting in the new coil, I've also adjusted the valves, replaced the points and condensor and reset the timing. Problem is, when she's stone cold, she runs GREAT! Especially when it's a little cool outside. But on a day like today when it's back into the 80s, she runs great while she's cold, but after she is running for a while, she sputters, stalls and generally runs like crap!
I've looked at just about ever vacuum componant I can think of, but can't find a vacuume leak. I've looked at all my wires and none look like they could be causing a short.
My experience with this bus has always been the same that the problem ends up being something simple. Problem is, I can't think of what else it could "simply" be!
Any thoughts? |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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TSII would be my guess. It richens the engine when cold. When they fail they richen the engine when hot too. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RocketRod Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2007 Posts: 641 Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Check those grounds on the left side of the plenum. cold everything is tight, warm it loosens up. 1st thing i'd do anyway. But most likely what SGK said. _________________ Why Yes it is a Magic bus!
Common Sense isn't so common. |
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Westfabulous Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 4207 Location: The tropic of Canada, dodging the giant flying moose of Surrey!
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
TSII would be my guess. It richens the engine when cold. When they fail they richen the engine when hot too. |
I'm with brother Steve on this one. Replace TS2; I wouldn't even bother testing it. If it doesn't solve the problem, keep the old one in the glove box as a spare. As mentioned, check your FI grounds under the driver's side plenum.
As a test, if you like, disconnect the TS2 from the harness and ground the harness end when the engine is warm. This will tell the ECU that the engine is warm and will lean the mixture, in the event that the TS2 is not doing that on it's own. _________________ *****************
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." |
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onion456 Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2006 Posts: 674 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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i had a situation where my points were walking on me, gap would close when the engine was warm and would open up again when cold. bus would die when warm and i couldnt get her started again until cooled off.
i then learned about putting distributor grease on the cam and havent had a problem since =)
try checking the dwell and timing when you are having problems- if its off, this could be it. _________________ '76 Sage Green Westy 2.0 FI
'76 Creamsicle 7-passenger 2.0 CS FI
'85 Tan Westy |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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When I get the chance, I will look at the TS2. I'd imagine I just need to get the bus to a point of "failure", disconnect the TS2 and ground it out (lead NOT attached to the TS2 of course but the other end) and see if it improves after a few minutes. Correct?
And Onion, were your "walking points" due to heat expansion of the dizzy shaft? Based on what I've done recently, that would make sense, but how greasing the rotor shaft fixed it is not clear to me. Aside from lubing the shaft to prolong the life of the little points piece that touched the rotor shaft, how did the grease help? |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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I got this dielectric grease from O'Reilly and now I just gotta put it on, get it hot and recheck the points gap... does that sound like the proper procedure? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51156 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Dielectric greas is good for preventing corrosion in connections and terminals but useless for lubing the distributor cam, the point gap won't change enough to measure after a warm up. But a dwell meter will tell you if the points are acting up warm vs: cold.
Checked that TS2 yet? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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So while doing a little digging, I figured out that I did have a sizable vacuum leak coming from the brake booster hose going toward the front of the bus. I replaced a good length and sprayed the whole area with carb cleaner to see if the idle changed... solid as a rock.
Is there a possibility that the vacuum leak I was having would have caused the bus to run badly once it was nice and hot?
Also, I reset the gap on the points and put a little grease on the dizzy shaft to keep the friction down. She drove beautifully, but I didn't ride her long enought to see if the problem reoccured. |
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Westfabulous Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 4207 Location: The tropic of Canada, dodging the giant flying moose of Surrey!
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Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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thesykboy wrote: |
Is there a possibility that the vacuum leak I was having would have caused the bus to run badly once it was nice and hot? |
Oh, good for you! Nice work. As for your question: yes. As the engine warms, the mixture is leaned by TS2, and the vacuum leak probably leaned it out way too much. When the engine was cold, the vacuum leak was probably overcome by the rich "cold engine" condition set up by the TS2. _________________ *****************
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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LOL! Well, I did test the TS2 and got no noticable change when I grounded it. Maybe tomorrow I'll take for a safe around town drive and see how she goes... |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I have to ask... What exactly do the lines leading to the break booster do that would cause the bus to run rich if there is a leak? I must admit that I'm still not quite up to snuff on what the whole vacuum system does. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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have you fixed the leaking lines and if so does it run better? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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RocketRod Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2007 Posts: 641 Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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thesykboy wrote: |
I have to ask... What exactly do the lines leading to the break booster do that would cause the bus to run rich if there is a leak? I must admit that I'm still not quite up to snuff on what the whole vacuum system does. |
With the leak it is introducing unmetered air into the air intake system. Something the TSII, ECU & AFM cannot measure or compensate for. _________________ Why Yes it is a Magic bus!
Common Sense isn't so common. |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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This is incredible! I took her for a drive ALL over town and she had more power and ran cleaner than I think she EVER has!!! That vacuum leak was really robbing me in a LOAD of ways.
I have a different issue though that I can't really say it's much of an issue...
Since getting the vacuum leak fixed, I've noticed that the idle is a little higher. I tried to drop the idle down and see how low I could get it, but I was only able to get the idle screw to go 1/2 turn before it wouldn't turn anymore. Even when it was no longer to go any further, the bus ran, (which I found odd since usually lowering the idle too much will kill the engine... on carburetors at least). But it still ran fine, just a little higher idle that I'd like. I settled at 1/4 turn above dead bottom just for good measure.
Is everything within adjustment for it to run like this or do I need to adjust anything else to get the idle down a hair? Or, is my bus running just fine and I need to shut up and enjoy it? |
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timo78 Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2009 Posts: 931 Location: Overcast and Loving it
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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thesykboy wrote: |
Even when it was no longer to go any further, the bus ran |
That would indicate you still have a vacuum/ intake air leak. Spray carb cleaner, or propane gas around any junction point on the intake side after the throttle body. Once you spray the leak the idle should go up/ fluctuate. _________________ > 78Grµn Westfalia `Donkey`
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It may be bigger than you and it may be bigger than me, but it’s not bigger than you AND me; can you dig it? |
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Westfabulous Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 4207 Location: The tropic of Canada, dodging the giant flying moose of Surrey!
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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timo78 wrote: |
thesykboy wrote: |
Even when it was no longer to go any further, the bus ran |
That would indicate you still have a vacuum/ intake air leak. |
Could be; need to check that out.
You could also check your timing and dwell. Make sure your timing isn't too advanced. Maybe check to make sure your AAR is actually closing after warm up as well. Also check the flapper in you air box and make sure it isn't sticking open just a touch. What is your idle RPM at on a warm engine? _________________ *****************
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Westfabulous wrote: |
timo78 wrote: |
thesykboy wrote: |
Even when it was no longer to go any further, the bus ran |
That would indicate you still have a vacuum/ intake air leak. |
Could be; need to check that out.
You could also check your timing and dwell. Make sure your timing isn't too advanced. Maybe check to make sure your AAR is actually closing after warm up as well. Also check the flapper in you air box and make sure it isn't sticking open just a touch. What is your idle RPM at on a warm engine? |
Gotta hand it to a guy who sleeps with his AAR. That is dedication. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Westfabulous Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 4207 Location: The tropic of Canada, dodging the giant flying moose of Surrey!
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Not too different from you and your bed full of catalytic converters and EGR valves, eh Steve? _________________ *****************
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." |
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thesykboy Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 144 Location: Littleton, Colorado
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I sprayed every hose and connection in the compartment this morning and no change in rev... so I'm imagining that the vacuum leaks are done! However, due to the one I just fixed, my timing WAS off by a few degrees (maybe 5). I reset the timing, raised the idle up just a hair and took it for a 35 mile drive...
HOLY SHITBALLS!!! For the first time in 15 years, I could feel an increase in horsepower, I was easily passing people on the freeway and my idle was solid as a rock when I stopped. It kinda feeaked me out since I have NEVER felt the kinda power coming from my bus that I'm feeling now. Acceleration was better, and the sound of the engine is cleaner than I've ever heard. It's running beautifully!
Now I need to put a pouch of tools together (just in case) and get ready to take her out on the road later this week! I just LOVE it when a plan comes together!!! |
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