Author |
Message |
ralf Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008 Posts: 1215 Location: r4
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
just want to point out ,
in my line of work.. i learn to pay attention to some details when looking at things..
and the one thing that is cool apart from everything else on this build being cool
the studs where too long.. grind them off shorter.. sure all do this
but grinding it to a turned radius? classy..
sure it may not make a diff in performance or longevity
but i can apriciate mr. ray's attention to detail
, if he is this detailed there? id bet in the finer things he is more detailed
(insert name builders) who usually hacksaw long studs to make short
will now say.. ive been doing this too! (and starts doing this tomorow for the first time LOL)
Dawn - if i have a question for mr. Ray , would it be too much to ask if you can relay it to him? it wont bring him business but its a tech question i wonder and wish to ask him, if you think he has time.. let me know
we can private msg' if it makes it an out of topic for this wonderful thread
_________________ Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the compliments Ralf.
Ray is always available for chatting VW's and motors with anyone. He has a website and Facebook that need updating and as soon as that happens, I will put them on here, along with adding him to the samba vendor list.
In the meantime, anyone can call him at his shop at 530-823-6193. Leave a message if he doesn't answer, he will call you back. _________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ralf Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008 Posts: 1215 Location: r4
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
alright... il make a call from the philippines to ray
thanks also for sharing all this with us..
its a pleasure reading all the detailed work... not just by ray
but also with your contribution _________________ Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorting through $2500 worth of parts from CB Performance.
We are going to assemble the motor on the rack to check if everything fits well. When building a motor from scratch, it's not uncommon that many things will interfere with other things and need modifying. We want to do this now before final assembly.
This was done a few days earlier before the manifolds were cut (in order to clear the decklid), so that we could measure where to cut them. The linkage in this picture shows how it will have to be modified to clear the alternator after they are shortened.
Better pic of these beauties. Dual Weber 48 IDA's.
The lever on the right is unnecessary, it is just a throttle stop. We will cut it off so it looks better. They ran these as singles in Italy originally and apparently needed the lever, and Spain copied it.
Alternator instead of a generator. The tin behind the alternator is black. Tidbit from Ray, he prefers black to chrome for quality over looks. CBP sells chrome and black. Chrome - china. Black - VW.
Competition merged exhaust. I will not use this exhaust in the winter unfortunately. I need heater boxes, Hugo is my daily driver.
Muffler. We will have to cut off this flange, it is too small.
Completed motor with exhaust (prior to cutting manifolds).
Here is after they were cut and we decided to raise the linkage mounts on the carbs. Ray is going to make spacers for the mount screws out of push rods tubes.
Raised linkage mounts.
View from the front of the engine. Note the carbs are tilted a few degrees inward to help clear the decklid. Webers can go 15 degrees in or out and still run properly.
It's starting to get exciting to see what it will look like! _________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The fan shroud is small, so there's not a lot of room for the coil. The regulator is inside the alternator. We want to tuck the coil in behind the alternator mount, but it won't quite fit with the CB mount for it. We'll need to grind a little off. How cool that it happens to be red, the car is OG red also? View from the front of the engine. "Front" means the front of the car...
After grinding, fits nicely now, with room for the strap.
View from the rear of the car. The shroud needed a bit of fabricating to fit well also.
And with the distributor, a billet based electronic Magna Spark II.
_________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210
Last edited by dsimas62 on Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
All that attention to detail and you're gonna use one of those shrouds? Seriously they do not work as well as the OEM. I've seen one cook the #3 / #4 side. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Think about it....
First off it removed the stock oil cooler. The stock cooler with bypass is very efficient and is all I need for my 2180 @ 9.5 cr, no secondary cooler needed. Does that shroud have any directional vanes inside? If not than it's just a empty tin cam. If it does did they put as much research as the VW engineers? Also the fan spins clockwise, so on the left side the air is being thrown up and has to make a 180* turn to be blown over the cylinders and heads.
Its just doesn't make sense. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the input Glenn, that explains it very well. In my humble opinion, I had questioned the cooling capability when I saw the shroud myself. Ray is not one to do things for "show", so I didn't doubt that he felt sure it was as functional, but I don't recall his answer in specifics. I will let you know what he says after we work on the motor tonight!
_________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RockCrusher Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2010 Posts: 4596 Location: Parkesburg, PA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yep Dawn, Glenn is 100% correct on how that shroud works....or rather does not work. The similar offset aluminum one has the same issues.
Please do not sacrifice your nice engine. I think those look awesome but they just don't work.
RC _________________ [email protected] Please use email for all general inquiries.
I will be happy to speak to anyone who has a serious inquiry (meaning real potential business for RC enterprises) or a parts order. Due to machining noise causing missed calls all calls will be returned promptly. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SRP1 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 4340
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gotta back up RC and Glenn, nice build but that shroud is a bad apple, tested those many moons ago, just plain horrible.
Also if you want heat in the winter that shroud won't get it done even with those little bolt on outlet's when compared to a factory doghouse |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Listen to those guys, that shroud doesn't work very well. I'd say for drag race only. It doesn't have any viens inside to direct the air flow.
Other than that, killer build man! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks everyone for comments on the fan housing. Firstly, Ray fully agrees that it's not as efficient as a stock one. What we haven't gotten to in this thread is that we have things that will result in more cooling that will compensate.
We are using a K8 cam with more overlap (cooler).
A 1.5 quart sump.
Dual oil filters.
A 96-pass external cooler (more efficient than the stock cooler by far).
The main reason he wants to try to use the smaller housing is that it's a very narrow motor. It will be easier to get in and out, will have easier access to things, and we would have to chop and fabricate a stock housing to make it work.
Now, that being said, I want to speak for Ray, but this is me speaking now: This man is a pioneer. He's made a career out of making things happen that people say cannot be done. This is something he wants to try and I trust him. I am very lucky to be close enough with him to know that he will gladly pull the motor again and again if necessary to tweak things in this very unique build. Not for my satisfaction, but so that he and future builders can all learn from it, and that's why I'm blogging it.
I have gauges in the car and we will be testing it carefully. If it runs hot or I don't have heat in the winter (likely I know), he is prepared to add vanes if necessary. First he wants to run it and see if and where we need them. He may also fabricate heater tubes equal to the factory's with the internal scoop. He also explained to me that a fan housing works by building air pressure inside, not necessarily directional air, but this may be getting lost in the translation since I am trying to explain it for him.
Regardless, he wants to try this for two reasons: Looks and convenience (access). He's willing to do trial and error to see how to make one work so that others can benefit from it, if it can be done. If not, we'll put a stock shroud in.
That being said: He agrees that its not as good a housing as stock for a street car, so keep that in mind and take the other comments on this thread into consideration. As things progress, we'll see how it goes with mine and report on it. _________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210
Last edited by dsimas62 on Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, next up on this motor build was final assembly. Ray always washes his hands well and keeps everything spotless. The case gets a good bath in the washer.
Using an Engle K8 cam. Here's its Cam Card.
We have to add the cam gear. This shows oil pump drive slot. Ray uses locktite on the bolts so they won't come loose.
All performance cams come with provisions for the gear to bolt on, rather than preassembled, so that the builder has the choice of what gear sets to use. We are not putting any advance or retard washers and are running it straight up.
We have racing bearings and they are notched, but the case was not on one. So, Ray had to grind off the tang.
It's very important to be sure that the lifters clear the case before sealing it.
Link
Here Ray takes this opportunity to explain "overlap".
Link
Now on to assembling the crank. Here Ray is showing how to check for proper rod play, it should sit tight against the crankshaft as opposed to tilting side and side or rocking.
Link
Ray has been getting racing spacers lately that have been tricky to get on without wedging on the shaft (and risking damaging it). A racing spacer is solid, as opposed to a stock one that has a gap in it to expand. It goes between the crank gear and distributor drive. He heats it up on a hot plate and has to be quick about it and this one went on as good as could be expected, yay!
Link
Don't wait until the motor is together to see if the pulley fits. You may need to hone the pulley or polish the snout of the crank. Ray had to heat the pulley to get it to fit, which is nice and tight and will not need any work to get it on later.
You never want to start a new motor dry! This shows that he has oiled everything well as it goes together. When we checked for any play, the cam gear did have some backlash, so we swapped it out with another one. We are looking for is zero backlash, but yet for it to move freely. In the past you could order cam gears in plus and minus #'s. Now you have to depend on manufacturers' variations in gear width, so you have to be selective for the gear that you get.
Ready to assemble the case using Ultra Grey.
_________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ultra grey? Not silicone i hope? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
padex Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Newcastle Ca,
|
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
To bad ray doesn't still have his dyno. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Padex - Ray is building a new dyno.
Craigman - Yes, Ultra Grey is a silicone hybrid, but not a true silicone I believe. Ray says that they are using a similar sealer at most manufacturers now. Blue Glue was a popular silicone, but wasn't compatible with gas. Loctite came out with a compound that Porsche used, but found later it would separate also. UG has the qualities of silicone, but also has the ability to become more firm upon setup which makes it more difficult to penetrate.
When used on a case, it is pinched so tight to such a thin layer, it squeezes out the extra and leaves an ultra thin skin that is more dense with a stronger gluing ability. It is only a sealer, not to actually glue things together.
I mentioned it previously for use in cylinders, which is a different application. Cylinders use a large amount around the outside of the cylinder, as well as the mating surface. By the outside, I mean inside the spigot outside the barrel, making a huge o-ring inside the engine and it becomes very hard to get apart. This is best because the barrel is steel, the case is magnesium, and the "o-ring" follows the expansion rate as the two metals heat up at different rates. If you put it only on the flat surface of the cyl that hits the case at the spigot top it would come right off. It is semi firm (not solid), and therefore it creates an internal seal that strengthens the barrel.
Ray has been using it for 7 years and never had an issue. _________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"Houston, we have a problem."
So, this isn't that uncommon that you get into a project and hit some snags and rethink things. Ray was not able to remove enough material from Lynda's old racebus heads to cc them to 46cc like we needed to get the compression down. Those heads had been fly cut too much and he was going to lose a lot of squench area, not to mention they would just plain lose integrity. Unbeknownst to me, he was going to press on with the build in order to get the car and I to Fontana Bugorama in a week because he didn't want to let me down. But we'd have to tow it, rather than drive it, because of the high compression. The upside in Ray's mind was that we could be a serious contender in the Cal Look Challenge. He got sidetracked in that it's my Daily Driver and full race is not really my main goal. He was justifying it in his mind with saying he'd make me a proper set of heads after Fontana, swap them out, and make my Driver later.
Time was running out and Tony Klink came by that night to help with the final assembly. Tony and Ray are like twins separated at birth, I swear they read each other's minds. It is spooky to watch, they work together with symbiosis and it's like watching a ballet. Well, okay, dudes doing a ballet, but still it's like a choreographed dance. Anyone else trying to help would only slow Ray down. Tony helps speed things along. Here are the clowns for the night:
Here's a video of Tony at Test And Tune last year.
Link
Here's his motor, Ray is a sponsor and shares his secrets with Tony only.
Link
At this point I would only get in their way, so I wasn't really involved, other than taking pictures. I heard a lot of exclamations: "Dude, that's a full race motor!" and other such mutterings, which were exciting, but a concern to me...
They put on the heads and the rockers to measure the push rod length.
Ray usually uses aluminum push rods, but had some steel ones that turned out to be the right length, again feeling that they would suffice since it was only going to be doing passes and not driven. To counter act the high compression on the narrow motor, they put in a .040 head gasket and two .020 barrel shims (NOT what I had in mind) to add .080 total distance and get it to a reasonable compression to run. Add some racing gas and Dawn was going to kick a$$ at the track in a week and these guys were set on high!
When I saw the direction this was headed, I finally had to stop the freight train that these innovative racers were becoming. Fun as it all sounded, I have been without my Daily for quite a while now and hauling it to LA was not what I wanted, I like driving my car. And then redoing so much upon return for more down time is not what I want. There was no time to machine a new set of heads within a week, so I said I'd have to sit out Fontana and for him to please build the engine just once and start working on some new heads. Boy, it wasn't easy for me as a girl to tell these guys, like two Happy Puppies playing with the best toy on earth, that the fun was over.
Hugo isn't going to be done in the next few days after all, but we are back on track and not cutting any more corners due to a short time crunch, which is better. Tony and Ray are still racing Zerstorer next weekend, of course. We are counting on Tony still holding the National Record in his class (PRA - Pro Gas) and winning the point series, it's all good! _________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ralf Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008 Posts: 1215 Location: r4
|
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Awwwww its a snag alright , but id pay to watch those two create magic in a shop!!! Youre still lucky
I know you guys are pressed for time
But would it be possible to endmill the piston tops and make a sorta like a tub that mirrors the chambers outer shape? Should give more cc's for hugo's daily comp level? Ofcourse its a thought and ray may know better than i do
But it may be worth asking him? I hope time permits! _________________ Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dsimas62 Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2011 Posts: 297 Location: Auburn, CA
|
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ralf - Ray says the reason he wouldn't to this is that the head is thinner and the pin is higher on these pistons and they are already very light so he doesn't want to compromise it with a tub. Thanks for the input though and always feel free to make suggestions!
So, we are still moving forward:
We got a new set of heads and sent them out again to Bast to be welded to add material to the intake pad, so he can raise the intake port on the short side.
Here's the difference on the intake side. The lower one is a brand new one. The middle is mine with the welding done. The top one is Lynda's that have been machined to show the goal.
Putting a head into the angle plate in order to pick up the angle of the cylinder head from this stock unwelded, uncut head, so that we can then machine the new welded head without knocking the Bridgeport any further out of index.
Link
He machined the pad, then was working on porting the intakes. But the manifolds won't clear a spark plug wrench because they've been shortened so much. He'll grind a socket to pair with this engine to change spark plugs. He's never cut manifolds down like this and cannot grind more off them to clear. Other bugs with IDAs either run cut velocity stacks or pop out the decklid. We want to have air cleaners under the hood.
We chose to go with 1.3 rockers, which lessens the lift on a K8, it will be .498. The cam card shows the lift at .534, and we want to stay under .500. Engle's K8 normally would be ground for 1.4:1.
We ordered 7/16ths double taper aluminum pushrods from Smith Brothers. Standard is 3/8ths. But the larger ones will be much stiffer with more strength integrity by tapering at the ends. The taper also allows them to clear the tubes, provides more clearance, and reduces overall weight.
In the past, Ray had some custom valve guides made to order that he will be using. He sells these if anyone is interested. He will hone them to order, the guide is almost the size of the boss. It provides extra stability on the outer end by the valve spring, where it needs it.
Now THAT's a lightened flywheel. 11#. The stock one is 17#. I drive 45 miles a day on a mountain road to work, so Ray wants to be sure that I have a nice rapid acceleration rate for hills and passing. Yeah, that's our story and we're sticking to it...
_________________ Dawn
Hugo - '63 ragtop Cal Look bug - Hugo and Dawn - together since 1978
Engine build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482095
Trans build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7602210 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|