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Headlight, Hazard, Turn signal issues
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everything in your post reminds me of why I went with the simple 3 prong replay method instead of stressing over used expensive 9 prongs. Glad I did it, I don't think I could handle that frustration lol
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your telling me...Exactly why I bought an NOS one, but I should have known...I so want it to work...but I already know the 3 prong does...ughh...Please see the bottom of page 1 if you guys/girls missed it.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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crofty
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did the roberts conversion in my 66. everything works but I haven't tested the brake lights yet as i'm in the middle of replacing the entire system.
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I slept on crofty's tent once. I passed out drunk from two bottles of Everett's brother's wine.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crofty, Did you do the full conversion or just the brake light turn signals? I am reading up on the full conversion now and will probably order or pick up the related relays.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ordered the relays for the full conversion last night. Will do it next week after I receive them. I will report back.

Side note *** I called WW to inquire on the lack of availability of their 9-pin replacement box that most have had luck with. I was told that they are in T&E for a replacement box modeled after the original that utilizes the same shape and center through mount design. I was also told it may be "awhile" before it's released. They will not produce more of the other as the aforementioned style will be the new version.

Thanks again for all the help.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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crofty
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop Bob wrote:
Crofty, Did you do the full conversion or just the brake light turn signals? I am reading up on the full conversion now and will probably order or pick up the related relays.


i did the full conversion.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new box is here and tested...
Today's project was to replace the Turn Signal / Hazard fix I had done with the new replacement WW 12v 9-pin box. I have nothing bad to say. It works flawlessly and appears almost identical to the original blue colored box. I applaud them for finally stepping up to the plate with this highly sought after 12v part that has caused many wasted dollars and time for myself and I am sure many other 12v owners.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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shano63 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through your post and did the troubleshooting, but still have no turn signals. The hazards work fine when I ground the box. The turn signals light up steady but don't blink. Any thoughts?
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did everything work correctly when you did the troubleshooting as per Type2.com? You have all 66/67 type 12v hazard, switch, etc on your 66?
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the black wire from the TS switch going to the flasher instead of the fuse box and the black, white, green going to the fuse box. I switched the two, grounded the box and the hazards worked. I tried the turn signals and they just light up steady. New wiring works harness, TS switch and flasher from WW. I don't understand why the hazards would flash but not the turn signals. I know its hard to see, but does the wiring look correct?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it's not correct. The 2 double turn sig wires should be at VL and VR. The red (30), light blue, brown, and blk/red are all in the right spot. PM sent.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to update. I talked to shano63. He had a couple wires in the wrong spots. He reported that everything is working as it should now. It sounds like another thumbs up for the new WW repo relay.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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shano63 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, It was totally on my end. Box works great. Its nice to have turn signals and hazards. If you're on the fence about buying one, get it.
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roamer Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: No brake lights, everything else works Reply with quote

This thread seems a good place to add my woes.

We were about to leave on vacation today when I noticed no brake lights. Sad Actually, we only noticed that after I was checking out my right rear taillight, which I already knew wasn't working due to the fast-flash during right turns en route to the gas station. That problem was due to a broken OG bulb-holder to which I had previously made a temporary repair that finally let go. Hoping to leave soon, I just swapped in a new WW replacement taillight unit I had on hand and I'll see if I can fix the old one later. Checked out the lights, all well, except .. no brake lights!?! (on either side)

Some background:
66 bus, converted to 12v by prior owner, bus is good, wiring is good, and appears to follow the standard VW conventions according to the 66 model year color diagram (and am well familiar with the diagram and wiring layout after much study over the past couple years). It uses the Wolfsburg West 9-pin box (not the newest blue one but the previous model). All lighting has worked properly in the past and during a cross-country trip last fall. Directionals, hazards, headlights, taillights, markers and license plate light are working.

During last year's trip, we had a small mishap when the battery got loose and grounded out the terminals on the right rear taillight. We spent an hour or so troubleshooting and popping fuses (no problem, had lots! Smile ) in the yard of a Nebraska grain silo until we figured out the cause. After we sorted it out and latched the battery back where it belonged, we checked everything and all was well, except that apparently we had fried the high-beam dimmer relay, so all we had was low beams. That was OK since we did minimal driving at night and we made it home without them, and I am quite sure that the brake lights were still working OK when we got home. I had popped the dimmer relay once before in when I shorted something out, and didn't have any side effects except for the missing high beams.

For various unfortunate reasons, the bus sat in the yard for the next 11 months, started up occasionally but not driven. Today was the first time out of the driveway, so I don't know at what point things went bad.

Anyway, we started checking things with a multi-tester and almost everything checks out well. We get 12v output from the master cylinder switch when the pedal is pressed, same deal at the cable in the front compartment before it plugs into the 9-pin box. The brake switch input to the 9-pin and output to the turn signal switch are both on terminal 54/54f as per the wiring diagram. If only the wire from the MC is attached, it reads 12v when pedal is pressed; if the second wire is attached to the turn signal, it reads 0 when pedal is pressed. Both taillights (dim filament) work when headlights are on, and both rear directional/hazards (bright filament) work, so we know there is continuity in the wiring to the back and the bulbs are working.

I found I had a replacement dimmer relay, so we replaced that first. Now the high beams work! Smile But still no brake lights. Didn't think it would make any difference, but had to do it anyway, so ... on to the next step.

We checked a lot of things, including grounds. Just about everything has a separate ground wire to the body, taillights included. Didn't clean up every ground wire but will do so tomorrow just to be sure. I had a spare, new WW 9-pin box so for the heck of it, we swapped it in; no difference. The previous 9-pin switch was working fine before, including brake lights, so I didn't really suspect it, but we wanted to eliminate the possibility.
We took apart the OG turn signal switch; there were a couple places inside where the wiring insulation looked dicey; we wrapped the questionable spots in electrical tape, but no change. I had a spare, new WW replacement turn signal switch so from lack of ideas, we swapped it in. No change.

Notes (possible clues?):
1) The hazard switch is the light-up kind the flashes when pulled. Sometime during last year's trip, the bulb in the knob stopped working, but the flashers themselves worked OK. I unscrewed the knob and found the bulb was loose; pushed it back to seat it; and it resumed blinking for a while. But eventually it stopped (possible the bulb burned out, I didn't have a replacement at the time). The hazards lights front and back continued to work OK, though.

2) The green dash indicator arrows that light during left/right signalling don't light up when the hazards are on. I thought they used to at some point, so possibly it's a sign of a problem. Question

--

Running out of ideas, turned to The Samba as usual and found this thread that mentioned the interesting and highly-recommended 9-pin troubleshooting article, thanks to Matt Roberds, and worthy of repeated mention:
http://www.type2.com/library/electris/vw-9prong.html

I went through the troubleshooting section and almost everything passed (particularly the rear light test touching wire 54f to 30, with and without left/right directional switch, to prove taillights light up correctly - they lit up just the way they are supposed to).

There are a few differences between his description and what I have, but I think these are correct for the modern WW repop 9-pin. In the original VW Aug 65 (66 model year) wiring diagram, they show 9-pin KBL blue/white wire goes to speedo indicator bulb, and 49a black/green/white goes to the turn signal switch. However, the WW 9-pin diagram shows KBL goes to K terminal on the hazard flasher switch (why? to flash the bulb that's in the knob?) and 49a is split so it goes both to the turn signal switch and to the speedo indicator bulb. That's how my bus was wired when I got it, and it worked fine for a couple years.

All the troubleshooting tests worked, with the following caveats:
1) Case 1:
Quote:

To test the speedometer indicator light, pull off the wire connected to terminal KBL, ground it to the body, and turn the ignition on. The indicator light should light up. If not, there is a problem with the ignition switch, wiring, bulb, or socket.


Test worked; the indicator bulb lights up when the wire is grounded with ignition on. It's the blue/white wire from the speedo indicator bulb that's connected to 49a rather than KBL per the WW 9-pin instructions.

2) Case 2:
Quote:

Pull off the wire connected to terminal -S and hold it and the wire from KBL together (both wires disconnected from the 9 prong box). Turn the ignition on and you should be able to make the speedometer indicator light go on and off by operating the hazard flasher switch. If not, there is trouble in the hazard flasher switch or its wiring.


This test worked too, but as above, using the blue/white wire from the speed indicator bulb. It's connected now to 49a rather than KBL (before we disconnected it for the test).

3) Case 3: The only test that failed was
Quote:

To test the warning light in the hazard switch, pull off the wire on terminal "K" on the hazard switch. Run your jumper wire from "K" on the hazard switch to "30" on the 9-prong box. Pull out the hazard switch and the light should come on. If not, either the bulb or socket or the grounding of the hazard switch is the trouble. Remove the jumper and put the wire back on "K" when you're done.


This failed because the bulb is burned out (I already knew that).

--

Tomorrow will check and shine up all grounds, and will attack the hazard switch, remove and check the wires and switch terminals under the dash. Don't really see what the hazard switch has to do with the brake lights, but ... Confused Will also measure voltage on the wires into the tailights, to see if they're getting anything at all when brakes are pressed.

Given that (I believe) everything was working OK last fall, all I can think of is that humidity from over the winter and summer rains may have degraded some wire connections or grounds. But I can't really see an explanation for why only the brake lights would be affected.

Suggestions welcomed. Will post the solution if I find it. Possible prize if you find it first: Very Happy


Last edited by roamer on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: No brake lights, everything else works Reply with quote

roamer wrote:
Tomorrow will check and shine up all grounds, and will attack the hazard switch, remove and check the wires and switch terminals under the dash. Don't really see what the hazard switch has to do with the brake lights, but ... Confused [...]

Suggestions welcomed. Will post the solution if I find it. Possible prize if you find it first: Very Happy Very Happy


Update:
I pulled the hazard switch, checked wires & cleaned terminals. The switch grounds against the back of the dash (so separate ground wire on this model switch), so I shined the front of the switch and the inside of the dash and reattached. No change, all 4 outside lights flash as they should, the bulb in the switch doesn't flash (looks burned out), and the indicator lamp in the speedo doesn't flash. (It does flash when using the directionals though, so the bulb is good) Could the dead bulb in the hazard switch explain this? Or the missing brake lights??
I suspect the bulb was 6v from before the 12v conversion; I don't have a replacement bulb on hand but will order some 12v ones.

While I was at it, I cleaned the indicator bulb holder and terminals in the speedometer, ditto for the gas gauge, and pulled the ignition switch and cleaned all wires and shined the base plate for grounding. Also cleaned grounds for the taillights, although they were already working in all respects except for brake lights.

Checked the fuse panel, looks ok but it's hard to bend it down for easy access due to some old/stiff original wires. But checked what I can't see directly using a mirror and seems ok. All the other lights and devices attached to it work, and the output line on the fuse that goes to the brake switch on the master cylinder must be supplying juice since I get 12v on the wire returning from the brake switch when pushing the pedal. The problem seems related to the 9-pin, or something that is attached to it. I don't know for certain that it's good, but both the original 9-pin and the one I replaced it with were recent WW repops (not the latest blue one, though), and everything else works. (Indeed, the brake lights used to work too)

I'm running out of things to check... Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: No brake lights, everything else works Reply with quote

Sunday eve update:

I amended the original description to correct a couple errors regarding the Type 2 troubleshooting procedure. Everything worked for me except the test for the bulb in the hazard switch, which didn't work because the bulb is burned out. The others were OK, except that a couple wires are connected differently to the WW repop 9-pin (per their diagram) than in the original VW wiring diagram. In the original VW Aug 65 (66 model year) wiring diagram, they show 9-pin KBL blue/white wire goes to speedo indicator bulb, and 49a black/green/white goes to the turn signal switch. However, the WW 9-pin diagram shows KBL goes to K terminal on the hazard flasher switch (I guess to flash the bulb that's in the knob?) and 49a is split so it goes both to the turn signal switch and to the speedo indicator bulb. That's how my bus was wired when I got it, and it worked fine for a couple years.

--

Ran a bunch of additional tests today, ruled out a lot of things but no success. Sad

I removed some extra wires from the fuse panel to eliminate some possibilities (e.g., interior lights, radio, wipers). Checked & shined up more grounds and switch connections. Ran temporary additional ground wires from both front directional lights, just in case it helped. (It didn't) Temporarily wired back in the OG right-rear taillight that we had swapped out for the WW repop after patching the bulb holder. It works fine, except for brake lights, so that's not the problem. Checked the output red/black and yellow/black wires that run from the turn signal switch back to the taillights; voltage is 0 when brake pedal is pressed. But they work fine for other lights (taillights, directions and hazards).

The only odd thing I noticed was this:
I disconnected the wire from fuse panel to wiper motor to eliminate it from the equation. When I did, the turn signals would no longer flash or even light up; just the dash indicator would light (but not flash) when you pull the lever either way. Huh?? Confused
Reconnected the wire, and the directions work OK again.
I don't see how sending juice to the wiper motor should affect what happens at the 9-pin or the turn signal switch. It's true that the wiper motor runs a ground wire to the wiper switch, and the wiper switch runs a ground wire to the turn signal, but I don't see how that explains it. The wiper switch gets power directly from the fuse panel and doesn't pass it along anywhere except to the wiper motor.
From looking that the wiring diagram, I don't see how the turn signal switch is grounded. Is it supposed to ground to the steering column, or from a wire that goes somewhere else?

Anyway, this doesn't seem involved with the brake lights, but aside from the non-working bulb in the hazard switch knob, it's the only thing that seemed odd to me.

Not sure what to try next. Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: No brake lights, everything else works Reply with quote

Update:
All lights still work except brake lights.
I took out the speedo cluster, checked all connections & bulbs, shined up all terminals, also on headlight switch and gas gauge, and ran separate ground wire to the gas gauge bracket just in case.

Decided to double check some voltages.
Voltage at battery terminals is 12.4. (hasn't been used/charged lately, will put on charger to make sure)
Voltage at input line at the master cylinder switch terminal: around 12v (forgot to write exactly # down)
Voltage on output line at the master cylinder switch terminals:
with ignition switch off: 0v
with ignition switch on: 1.0v
with ignition switch on and brake pedal depressed: 11.6v
(Correction: output appears to be about 9.5v, not 11.6v. that's not enough)

Questions:
Is it a problem that the switch at the master cylinder leaks 1 volt with the brake no pressed? Should it be 0?
Is 11.6 volts output from the switch enough with pedal down?
(answer: yes, tested this by jumping the live wire on the 9-pin over to 54/54f terminal, it puts out 11.7v and the lights go on)
Is the switch on the end of the master cylinder suspect?
(Don't have a replacement on hand but will get one just in case)

Will read more Samba articles tonight on MC switches. Have read oceans of other elec articles, some good advice found and interesting stories to salt away, even if not quite the same as the current situation.


Last edited by roamer on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: No brake lights, everything else works Reply with quote

(I may be talking to myself here, but will continue the story as I have found other folks' stories of diagnosis to be helpful)

Latest update:

More testing with the multimeter. With engine off, getting about 12.5v at the end (live 16amp) fuse terminal. With key turned to on position, I get about 11.7v at the next (switched, 16amp) fuse terminal. The end terminal drops about 0.2v when the switch is turned on, not sure why the adjacent one reads so much less. Still, 11.7v is probably enough.
If I jump the live wire on the 9-pin (which also reads 11.7v) over to the brake switch terminal on pin 54/54f, the brake lights go on, so that's promising. Smile

I rechecked the voltages around the master cylinder switch.
Voltage on input wire at the master cylinder switch terminal with key on: 11.7-11.9v (about the same as from the fuse block, so no loss there)
Voltage on output line at the master cylinder switch terminal:
with key on and brake pedal depressed: around 9.5-9.7v (hmm, not good, I want my 2 volts back! Evil or Very Mad )
I get the same reading on the end of the wire inside the cab where it will plug into the 9-pin box, so it's not losing more. But 9.5v isn't enough.

Conclusion:
Either ground is bad at the master cylinder, or the master cylinder switch is bad.

The master cylinder is rusty as all get-out, and looks likely that it is not getting a good ground to the body bracket, so will check on that tomorrow. If cleaning up the mount doesn't make a difference, then it's the switch. (I have a replacement, but will need to bleed the brakes if I go that route .. so will try the other first)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The master cylinder doesn't ground anything. It merely closes, with hydraulic pressure, a normally-open connection with two terminals that pass the power on to the brake light bulbs which are grounded through their bayonet bases.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
The master cylinder doesn't ground anything. It merely closes, with hydraulic pressure, a normally-open connection with two terminals that pass the power on to the brake light bulbs which are grounded through their bayonet bases.


OK, so if I'm losing 2 volts across the switch, it's just a bad switch.
(I cleaned the terminals, so that's not a problem)
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