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Headlight, Hazard, Turn signal issues
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:41 pm    Post subject: Headlight, Hazard, Turn signal issues Reply with quote

Getting my bus back on the road after stripped and blasted and put back together. New Wiring Works harness wired as it should be. Used untested 9-pin, headlight switch, turn signal switch, hazard switch.

1 - No high beams or low beams with headlight switch on. Parking lights front and rear work when switch is pulled in park position. Rears did not work until I added a rear tail light ground.

2 - No turn signals, no hazards.

I am wondering if I need to ground the 9-pin and if so how? Do I just add a piggy back to the -S on the 9pin and run it to a ground, or a ring terminal under the screw to ground, or is there a better way? This is kind of preliminary as I will be digging into it tomorrow and/or Sunday but just looking for some thoughts based on the above info if any. Thanks in advance.
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quartermilecamel
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didnt the later split buses have the headlight switch on the turnsignal lever? my 64 has the classic floor headlight hi lo beam switch. Id say if your style is like mine, then the headlight switch pretty much supplies power to the headlights through the floor switch. I wouldnt think the 9 pin has anything to do with headlamps. My bus doesnt have the dreaded 9 pin box as its factory euro wiring.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No...Correct, the 9 pin doesn't control the headlights. All that stuff is used though. The 9-pin does have to do with the turn signals and Hazards. The actual switch (on/off/park) is on the dash, the turn signal switch switches the headlights from high to low through the 311 part number relay. It's kind of a 2/3 part question. I have some work to do tomorrow (today).
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, make sure the 9-pin box is well grounded. The original boxes in '66 just grounded through the mounting screw and they soon figured out how that didn't work very well. Later ones in '67 added a separate brown ground wire that was attached inside the box. The -S terminal is what turns on the emergency flashers when it is grounded through the switch, so don't ground that.

9-pin troubleshooting, thanks to Matt Roberds
http://www.type2.com/library/electris/vw-9prong.html

If your bus is 12V and needs a new headlight hi-low dimmer relay, the wiring needs to be changed a bit to use the new relay.

Thanks to oldvolkshome ...
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/headrelay.pdf
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstefun wrote:
Yes, make sure the 9-pin box is well grounded. The original boxes in '66 just grounded through the mounting screw and they soon figured out how that didn't work very well. Later ones in '67 added a separate brown ground wire that was attached inside the box. The -S terminal is what turns on the emergency flashers when it is grounded through the switch, so don't ground that.

9-pin troubleshooting, thanks to Matt Roberds
http://www.type2.com/library/electris/vw-9prong.html

If your bus is 12V and needs a new headlight hi-low dimmer relay, the wiring needs to be changed a bit to use the new relay.

Thanks to oldvolkshome ...
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/headrelay.pdf


Dstefun, I was hoping you would show. I got the ground to the -S through another post you made years back. It was to test the hazards. I am going to do that later today to check if the box or the hazard switch is bad. How would you ground the old style 9 pin? Would a ring terminal around the mounting screw against the 9-pin outer escuteon(?) and then to a good ground cut it? I am trying to stick with all og relays for now (I know... Rolling Eyes Wink ) I have a few that I am going to try to test out.

I read the Matt Roberds article a year or two back but forgot about it. Thanks for reposting that link. That should sort everything else out.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.


Last edited by Snoop Bob on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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fmartin_gila
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article referenced earlier does make it fairly easy to check out a 9 pin box. I used it for reference as I was doing my 67 wiring repairs. I finally gave up trying to get a good working 9 pin and went with the 3rd method in that article and all is well now.

Fred
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop Bob wrote:
How would you ground the old style 9 pin? Would a ring terminal around the mounting screw against the 9-pin outer escutcheon(?) and then to a good ground cut it?


That should work - but you're still depending on the screw to be tight which is the original problem. Loose screw = bad ground. The back plate of the boxes is usually ground too since that mounts against the bracket.

Since VW used 3 different vendors for the boxes, depending on what box you have, the back is either steel or aluminum or phenolic. You can solder a wire to the steel but would have to drill the aluminum to add a screw or pop-rivet (and not drill through something in the box!!).

Some boxes come apart easily so you can see what you're doing, on the style with the phenolic back you have to drill off the head of the big mounting spacer to get the cover off.

On this one the power-in terminal was broken off so I repaired it by drilling a hole and running a wire directly into the box, also replaced the electrolytic capacitors and used some D-oxit on the relay contacts while I had it open.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little progress. Tested the 9-pin per the above link. Everything works as it should, so the 9-pin is suspect. I have 2 more on hand to try before I start tearing into them.

Dstefun. Side note. On the headlights. If the high/low relay is bad, can I test around it by supplying 12v to the output side for the high / low side respectively by jumping the switch output to test the switch? Also, can the switch still supply power to the parking lights and dash light w/reostat working and not work lights? Highly unlikely probably. I know there is a rebuild on T2.com, I will go there next if I can't test around it. Additionally, if the high/low relay is bad, can that cause the headlights (sans parking lights) to not function at all? That would be tits if that's all it is.

Thanks again in advance.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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olliehank47
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop Bob wrote:
A little progress. Tested the 9-pin per the above link. Everything works as it should, so the 9-pin is suspect. I have 2 more on hand to try before I start tearing into them.

Dstefun. Side note. On the headlights. If the high/low relay is bad, can I test around it by supplying 12v to the output side for the high / low side respectively by jumping the switch output to test the switch? Also, can the switch still supply power to the parking lights and dash light w/reostat working and not work lights? Highly unlikely probably. I know there is a rebuild on T2.com, I will go there next if I can't test around it. Additionally, if the high/low relay is bad, can that cause the headlights (sans parking lights) to not function at all? That would be tits if that's all it is.

Thanks again in advance.


Maybe I can offer a bit of help as I had a problem with my dimmer relay (what you call the high/low relay.)

First, the headlights are powered through the relay, not directly from the light switch itself. So you can by-pass the relay by jumping the whit/black stripe wire from the dash switch, directly to the yellow wire exiting the relay or--better yet--directly to the fuse block at terminal #8. That will test the low beam. If it works, then you know your dash switch is o.K. and the lights themselves are good. Repeat the jumping from the white/black stripe wire with the white wire for the high beams. If you get functioning high/low beams after by-passing the relay, you know where your problem lies.

To answer your other question, yes, you can have dash lights and parking lights functioning with the dash switch on and not have the head lights work. Again, that's because the dimmer relay is the source of power for the headlights through the white/black stripe wire from the dash switch and the dash lights/rheostat/parking lights operate from a different wire on the dash switch.

Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

olliehank47 wrote:
Snoop Bob wrote:
A little progress. Tested the 9-pin per the above link. Everything works as it should, so the 9-pin is suspect. I have 2 more on hand to try before I start tearing into them.

Dstefun. Side note. On the headlights. If the high/low relay is bad, can I test around it by supplying 12v to the output side for the high / low side respectively by jumping the switch output to test the switch? Also, can the switch still supply power to the parking lights and dash light w/reostat working and not work lights? Highly unlikely probably. I know there is a rebuild on T2.com, I will go there next if I can't test around it. Additionally, if the high/low relay is bad, can that cause the headlights (sans parking lights) to not function at all? That would be tits if that's all it is.

Thanks again in advance.


Maybe I can offer a bit of help as I had a problem with my dimmer relay (what you call the high/low relay.)

First, the headlights are powered through the relay, not directly from the light switch itself. So you can by-pass the relay by jumping the whit/black stripe wire from the dash switch, directly to the yellow wire exiting the relay or--better yet--directly to the fuse block at terminal #8. That will test the low beam. If it works, then you know your dash switch is o.K. and the lights themselves are good. Repeat the jumping from the white/black stripe wire with the white wire for the high beams. If you get functioning high/low beams after by-passing the relay, you know where your problem lies.

To answer your other question, yes, you can have dash lights and parking lights functioning with the dash switch on and not have the head lights work. Again, that's because the dimmer relay is the source of power for the headlights through the white/black stripe wire from the dash switch and the dash lights/rheostat/parking lights operate from a different wire on the dash switch.

Hope this helps.


Thanks, I mis spoke on the heahlight switch parking lights question, but that's because I get rambling and jumble all my thoughts in one...lol. Thanks for the reply. I will get on it, just didn't want to fry shit by jumping stuff.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the light switch works. I jumped the relay and all seems to work fine. While messing with the jumper, I accidentially grounded (micro second) it against the relay, and got some sparks. Since then, the low beams work with the switch, but the relay won't trip to the high beams. I will switch it out with one of my others and tear into it at a later time, now that I know it is the relay.

Dstefun. Can you advise where exactly the stock 67 9-pin wire grounded? I picked up the NOS one that was for sale here last night and it has the ground wire?

Thanks again, in advance, and for the help sorting it out.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop Bob wrote:
So the light switch works. I jumped the relay and all seems to work fine. While messing with the jumper, I accidentially grounded (micro second) it against the relay, and got some sparks. Since then, the low beams work with the switch, but the relay won't trip to the high beams. I will switch it out with one of my others and tear into it at a later time, now that I know it is the relay.

Dstefun. Can you advise where exactly the stock 67 9-pin wire grounded? I picked up the NOS one that was for sale here last night and it has the ground wire?

Thanks again, in advance, and for the help sorting it out.


My 67 has a brown ground wire from the 9-pin relay, and it's grounded by the screw that mounts the relay. The wire goes around to the back of the relay box where it is attached to the sheet metal screw that runs through the body of the relay and screws into the sheet metal of the bus. I don't know if this is the stock arrangement as it was this way when I got the bus, but it works fine and is unnoticeable.
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dstefun
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recommend using the screw that mounts the relay for the ground wire because then you're back to the original problem, loose screw on box = bad ground. And the boxes do eventually loosen up from the bus bouncing around. I do recommend a lock washer on the mounting screw.

So any other screw to the body under the dash is good but I have no idea where the original wire actually went. The wire is usually about 14-18 inches long so you have some leeway. My '66 already had some extra holes drilled behind the kick panels so I just used one of those.

Glad you're getting everything sorted out, and obviously Ollie was a big help!
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks to Dstefun, Ollie, and all.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the headlights to work. I installed a new (to me) relay.

***I will say this to all going through relay replacement/swap***

MAKE SURE THE TERMINALS ARE THE SAME.

I went through 3 relays after the first, only to realize that the original SWF terminals are not in the same locations as the BOSCH replacement relays I put in. It will not smoke the relay, but your shit will not work the way it's supposed to.

I took the original one apart and it was crazy corroded. I cleaned it up but broke one of the fine strand copper wires connecting the relay internals. I tried a splice it back but no luck, but it was cool seeing how it all works inside.

Thanks to all again. One day closer to on the road.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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doveblue3
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop Bob wrote:
One day closer to on the road.


4 Runner Brigade
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice...not this year. Should be on the road by this weekend...thanks for the vote of confidence though Confused Wink
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disappointing day electrically on the bus. I received the NOS 9-pin today and proceeeded to install. NO DICE. I tried a 3rd I had and the blinkers worked once and shut off. It was beginning to remind me of when I had the headlight relay wired wrong so again I checked the wiring. It has been triple checked and is correct (Remember above I even did the Matt Roberds diagnostic check). I decided to do the simple Matt Roberds fix and go with turn signals and brake lights only and no hazards. I went and picked up a 3 prong relay and hooked everything up per his specs. 1/2 good news. I now have turn signals but I cant get the brake lights to work. Brand new WW master bled out fine today with their already installed brake pressure switches. What gives? I would be ok if I had the brake lights at least. I am going to check continuity tomorrow, but I am positive everything is good. (The brake light is a direct 54 to 54f connection so I am out of ideas.) Is there any way to test out the 9-pin? Sorry about the rambling but this really bummed me out on what was an otherwise productive day on the bus.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't someone write an article in Hot VWs about a relay tester they built for checking out the relays? About 3-4 years ago? I seem to remember something, I think it had photos and the wiring diagram for the tester too...

Bill
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone has or can locate that article that would be fantastic.

Update **

I got the brake lights working. It was pretty silly actually. I busted out the multimeter and figured out I had both 12v wires to the same switch. I fixed it and thought hey...maybe that could really f%$& with the testy 9-pin...sooo

No luck. The only thing I can get now with the 9-pin is when I pull out the hazards and then push the switch in, I get a noticeable clunk in the 9-pin (2 seperate 9- pin boxes did this). Nothing else works (hazard, turn signal wise). It is almost as if something isn't connected quite right but I must have checked 10 + times, and that's a conservative count. Confused

Recap...Turn signal lights and switch, hazard switch, tested good with Matt Roberds method. The signals work with his relay work around. Now the brake lights are good to go as well. Noticeable clunk from 9-pin when turning off hazard switch. Any one that can help with some new ideas please do. I will try to post pics of the wires tonight to see if anything jumps out at anyone in the know.

Thanks again. Sad
_________________
BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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