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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Distributor 180* out??.... |
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Ok, so I'm doing the valve adjustment for the first time on my bug...Googled the topic and found a bunch of different write-ups...So I read them thoroughly and head out to thew garage armed with all this info..Should be a piece of cake, as I do them on my bike all the time, and used to have a '71 Chevy pickup with a solid lifter 327 small block...I get into it and something just ain't right...Valves are so tight the car shouldn't even run..So I enlist my wife to spin the motor over while I watch the valves from below...Still not jiving with what it should be and I just know that it isn't going right...So I come back in here and do more research..Then I checkout this you-tube vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozht-_iu3Ew&feature=related
And I notice at approximately the 2:15 point in the vid he points out where the rotor should be pointing for #1 cylinder...WTF??...Mine is 180* opposite his!!..Hmmm...So I go out and take the camera with me and check one more time to be sure...yup, the little moark in the distributor housing is opposite the one in the video...So for shits and giggles I keep turning the engine over until the rotor is pointing opposite the mark in the housing and the valves that should be loose are now...
So my question is how in the hell was this car able to run at all if the distributor is installed 180* off??...
Ink pen pointing to mark in distributor housing....
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ok got the valves done by using the plug wires and dist cap as reference for each cylinder TDC along with timing mark on pulley...Obviously somebody put the distributor in wrong, but they got the plug wires sorted out and going to the correct cylinders...Bet there was some "creative" language going on sorting that mess out!!..lol...
Any real harm in running the car with the distributor the way it is??... |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, all you have to do is wire your distributor relative to its position and the engine will not know the difference….would even be possible on your chevy. |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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anthracitedub wrote: |
Yep, all you have to do is wire your distributor relative to its position and the engine will not know the difference….would even be possible on your chevy. |
That's what I thought...As long as the correct plug is firing at the correct time, I'm all good...Now for the valve cover gaskets to get in at Autozone, then I can get the carb setup right....
Thanks... |
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wayne1230cars Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 2684 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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That looks like an 009 distributor as there is no vacuum cannister. This photo shows the usual orientation of the 009 at #1 TDC. Notch is about the 4 o'clock position and the condensor at about 10 o'clock. Yours looks opposite.[img][/img] If the engine was running fine in that position, then I would verify that #1 plug wire is also at the notch. Likely the distributor drive was installed 180 degrees out. This is not uncommon. If your distributor was a vacuum type, then it would only install one way as you would have some clearance issues and so you would have to adjust wire positions on the cap to compensate. Also the notch on vaccum distributors is usually about the 2 o'clock position. Remember firing order is 1-4-3-2 clockwise so if #1 plug wire is at the notch and 4-3-2 follow, then the drive is in backwards. The other way to verify this is to set the motor to #1 TDC, pull the distributor and look down at the drive. The narrow part of the offset should be pointing towards the crank pulley. If the wide end is pointing towards the crank pulley, like in this photo then you know for sure the drive is 180 degrees off.[img][/img] |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31270 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Bassdude404 wrote: |
Now for the valve cover gaskets to get in at Autozone, then I can get the carb setup right.... |
I'd use the correct-type cork gaskets. If yours leak, get the cork. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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wayne1230cars wrote: |
That looks like an 009 distributor as there is no vacuum cannister. This photo shows the usual orientation of the 009 at #1 TDC. Notch is about the 4 o'clock position and the condensor at about 10 o'clock. Yours looks opposite.[img][/img] If the engine was running fine in that position, then I would verify that #1 plug wire is also at the notch. Likely the distributor drive was installed 180 degrees out. This is not uncommon. If your distributor was a vacuum type, then it would only install one way as you would have some clearance issues and so you would have to adjust wire positions on the cap to compensate. Also the notch on vaccum distributors is usually about the 2 o'clock position. Remember firing order is 1-4-3-2 clockwise so if #1 plug wire is at the notch and 4-3-2 follow, then the drive is in backwards. The other way to verify this is to set the motor to #1 TDC, pull the distributor and look down at the drive. The narrow part of the offset should be pointing towards the crank pulley. If the wide end is pointing towards the crank pulley, like in this photo then you know for sure the drive is 180 degrees off.[img][/img] |
Plug wire #3 is at the notch...The wires are correctly routed with how it 'should" be...The distributor itself is 180* out...Had some other running aropund to do and didn't get the carb tuned, but got the valve covers back on and started it up (also "static timed" the distributor) and started the car up...Ran better, but still stalling out at idle...We (wife is a great assistant!!) called it a night and I'm chilling with a Captain & Coke Zero now..I'll get to the carb tomorrow morning... |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded |
OK, either some confusion on my part (very possible) or on everyone else, or a combination of both...I set the valves per the TDC location on the crank pulley..Now the distributor being 180* off threw me a loop at first, until I saw the vid I posted a link to...From that point forward, I ignored the notch in the distributor housing that's supposed to be for #1 cylinder...And instead lined up the timing mark on the pulley with the case seam, and rotor pointed at about 5 o-clock position (rear of rotor pointed towards the notch in the housing), and proceeded to set the vales correctly...
Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly... |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Bassdude404 wrote: |
Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly... |
#1 where the # 1 spark plug wire actually is, and should be #3 instead?
If so, check the spark timing at the other 180 degree spot on the distributor. If same good, if not.....
If you mean the distributor is spun around, but #1 cylinder spark wire is in right spot next to mark in the distributor that is fine. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Bassdude404 wrote: |
Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly... |
#1 where the # 1 spark plug wire actually is, and should be #3 instead?
If so, check the spark timing at the other 180 degree spot on the distributor. If same good, if not.....
If you mean the distributor is spun around, but #1 cylinder spark wire is in right spot next to mark in the distributor that is fine. |
Distributor housing position is 180* off...Plug wire location is correct as if the distributor was installed correctly....So plugs are getting spark at the correct time for each cylinder...It's all good for now... |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor 180* out??.... |
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Bassdude404 wrote: |
Ok, so I'm doing the valve adjustment for the first time on my bug...Googled the topic and found a bunch of different write-ups...So I read them thoroughly and head out to thew garage armed with all this info..Should be a piece of cake, as I do them on my bike all the time, and used to have a '71 Chevy pickup with a solid lifter 327 small block...I get into it and something just ain't right...Valves are so tight the car shouldn't even run..So I enlist my wife to spin the motor over while I watch the valves from below...Still not jiving with what it should be and I just know that it isn't going right...So I come back in here and do more research..Then I checkout this you-tube vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozht-_iu3Ew&feature=related
And I notice at approximately the 2:15 point in the vid he points out where the rotor should be pointing for #1 cylinder...WTF??...Mine is 180* opposite his!!..Hmmm...So I go out and take the camera with me and check one more time to be sure...yup, the little moark in the distributor housing is opposite the one in the video...So for shits and giggles I keep turning the engine over until the rotor is pointing opposite the mark in the housing and the valves that should be loose are now...
So my question is how in the hell was this car able to run at all if the distributor is installed 180* off??...
Ink pen pointing to mark in distributor housing....
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Again ? What happens in a 4 cycle engine after TDC firing on any cylinder? If you could line up the pulley with crankcase split line you'dhave a 50 50 chance of being on #1, if not on #1 you'd be on 3 but could turn engine in either direction one full turn and be on #1 then using the 4 stroke senario of suck squeeze bang blow youd know that exhaust happens after TDC ignition stroke ......... photo indicates your dist is installed backwards, condensor should be behind facing fan shroud, wire looks like rubbing pulley.......... regardless it will run all jacked around like this if cap is wired 1432 CW ......... You could reverse position of driving dog on distributor which would give appearance of correct dist installation as this would turn it 180 degrees...... search this thread as its a topic beat to death probably under " finding TDC" |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I shoulda taken a pic of everything after I watched the valves open/close/etc, and found TDC with rotor pointing in the correct position...lol... |
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wayne1230cars Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 2684 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded |
1) If your distributor is in fact an 009, then it likely does not have the built in 3 degree retard(only some of the early German produced 009's have that)
2) If the motor is set to TDC #1 and rotor is pointing to 4:30 -5:00, and #3 wire is at the notch, then the distributor drive must already be installed correctly and it is just the distributor that is wrong.
3) Carb adjustment is the last thing to be done in a tuneup. Hopefully that will help the idle stall problem.
4) Make sure your point gap is set to .016 and then check dwell. Many will tell you that although a 009 distributor timing can initially be set statically, it is best to fine tune it with a strobe timing light. There is a fair variation in 009's and with a strobe you can time it to total advance. Do a search and you will find this discussed at length. Again carb adjustment after you have set timing. |
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wayne1230cars Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 2684 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Zundfolge1432 makes a good point about the driving dog of the distributor. It is possible that this at some point has been removed from the distributor and reinstalled 180 degrees out. If you have got it running OK and can live with it the way it is, then don't worry. If you ever sell the car be sure and tell the next owner though.[img][/img] |
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Bassdude404 Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2011 Posts: 234 Location: Rolling Prairie Indiana
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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wayne1230cars wrote: |
Eric&Barb wrote: |
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded |
1) If your distributor is in fact an 009, then it likely does not have the built in 3 degree retard(only some of the early German produced 009's have that)
2) If the motor is set to TDC #1 and rotor is pointing to 4:30 -5:00, and #3 wire is at the notch, then the distributor drive must already be installed correctly and it is just the distributor that is wrong.
3) Carb adjustment is the last thing to be done in a tuneup. Hopefully that will help the idle stall problem.
4) Make sure your point gap is set to .016 and then check dwell. Many will tell you that although a 009 distributor timing can initially be set statically, it is best to fine tune it with a strobe timing light. There is a fair variation in 009's and with a strobe you can time it to total advance. Do a search and you will find this discussed at length. Again carb adjustment after you have set timing. |
Yup, I'm on it...Don't have a timing light, as I haven't had a vehicle that heeded one in a long time, and back then I borrowed my dad's...lol..Already checked point gap which was spot-on....I did forget to get new spark plugs today (yeah I know, duuuuuuh), but will do that tomorrow when we run to town for some other stuff...The do the carb for final tune up....Then take my honey for a ride in our new-old-car..... |
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