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Distributor 180* out??....
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Distributor 180* out??.... Reply with quote

Ok, so I'm doing the valve adjustment for the first time on my bug...Googled the topic and found a bunch of different write-ups...So I read them thoroughly and head out to thew garage armed with all this info..Should be a piece of cake, as I do them on my bike all the time, and used to have a '71 Chevy pickup with a solid lifter 327 small block...I get into it and something just ain't right...Valves are so tight the car shouldn't even run..So I enlist my wife to spin the motor over while I watch the valves from below...Still not jiving with what it should be and I just know that it isn't going right...So I come back in here and do more research..Then I checkout this you-tube vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozht-_iu3Ew&feature=related

And I notice at approximately the 2:15 point in the vid he points out where the rotor should be pointing for #1 cylinder...WTF??...Mine is 180* opposite his!!..Hmmm...So I go out and take the camera with me and check one more time to be sure...yup, the little moark in the distributor housing is opposite the one in the video...So for shits and giggles I keep turning the engine over until the rotor is pointing opposite the mark in the housing and the valves that should be loose are now...

So my question is how in the hell was this car able to run at all if the distributor is installed 180* off??...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ink pen pointing to mark in distributor housing....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok got the valves done by using the plug wires and dist cap as reference for each cylinder TDC along with timing mark on pulley...Obviously somebody put the distributor in wrong, but they got the plug wires sorted out and going to the correct cylinders...Bet there was some "creative" language going on sorting that mess out!!..lol...

Any real harm in running the car with the distributor the way it is??...
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anthracitedub
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, all you have to do is wire your distributor relative to its position and the engine will not know the difference….would even be possible on your chevy.
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anthracitedub wrote:
Yep, all you have to do is wire your distributor relative to its position and the engine will not know the difference….would even be possible on your chevy.


That's what I thought...As long as the correct plug is firing at the correct time, I'm all good...Now for the valve cover gaskets to get in at Autozone, then I can get the carb setup right....

Thanks... Cool
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wayne1230cars
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like an 009 distributor as there is no vacuum cannister. This photo shows the usual orientation of the 009 at #1 TDC. Notch is about the 4 o'clock position and the condensor at about 10 o'clock. Yours looks opposite.[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img] If the engine was running fine in that position, then I would verify that #1 plug wire is also at the notch. Likely the distributor drive was installed 180 degrees out. This is not uncommon. If your distributor was a vacuum type, then it would only install one way as you would have some clearance issues and so you would have to adjust wire positions on the cap to compensate. Also the notch on vaccum distributors is usually about the 2 o'clock position. Remember firing order is 1-4-3-2 clockwise so if #1 plug wire is at the notch and 4-3-2 follow, then the drive is in backwards. The other way to verify this is to set the motor to #1 TDC, pull the distributor and look down at the drive. The narrow part of the offset should be pointing towards the crank pulley. If the wide end is pointing towards the crank pulley, like in this photo then you know for sure the drive is 180 degrees off.[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bassdude404 wrote:
Now for the valve cover gaskets to get in at Autozone, then I can get the carb setup right....


I'd use the correct-type cork gaskets. If yours leak, get the cork.
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayne1230cars wrote:
That looks like an 009 distributor as there is no vacuum cannister. This photo shows the usual orientation of the 009 at #1 TDC. Notch is about the 4 o'clock position and the condensor at about 10 o'clock. Yours looks opposite.[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img] If the engine was running fine in that position, then I would verify that #1 plug wire is also at the notch. Likely the distributor drive was installed 180 degrees out. This is not uncommon. If your distributor was a vacuum type, then it would only install one way as you would have some clearance issues and so you would have to adjust wire positions on the cap to compensate. Also the notch on vaccum distributors is usually about the 2 o'clock position. Remember firing order is 1-4-3-2 clockwise so if #1 plug wire is at the notch and 4-3-2 follow, then the drive is in backwards. The other way to verify this is to set the motor to #1 TDC, pull the distributor and look down at the drive. The narrow part of the offset should be pointing towards the crank pulley. If the wide end is pointing towards the crank pulley, like in this photo then you know for sure the drive is 180 degrees off.[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]


Plug wire #3 is at the notch...The wires are correctly routed with how it 'should" be...The distributor itself is 180* out...Had some other running aropund to do and didn't get the carb tuned, but got the valve covers back on and started it up (also "static timed" the distributor) and started the car up...Ran better, but still stalling out at idle...We (wife is a great assistant!!) called it a night and I'm chilling with a Captain & Coke Zero now..I'll get to the carb tomorrow morning...
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded


OK, either some confusion on my part (very possible) or on everyone else, or a combination of both...I set the valves per the TDC location on the crank pulley..Now the distributor being 180* off threw me a loop at first, until I saw the vid I posted a link to...From that point forward, I ignored the notch in the distributor housing that's supposed to be for #1 cylinder...And instead lined up the timing mark on the pulley with the case seam, and rotor pointed at about 5 o-clock position (rear of rotor pointed towards the notch in the housing), and proceeded to set the vales correctly...


Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly...
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bassdude404 wrote:

Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly...


#1 where the # 1 spark plug wire actually is, and should be #3 instead?
If so, check the spark timing at the other 180 degree spot on the distributor. If same good, if not.....

If you mean the distributor is spun around, but #1 cylinder spark wire is in right spot next to mark in the distributor that is fine.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Bassdude404 wrote:

Now for the static timing of the distributor, I also watched a you-tube vid and noted the same deal with my distributor being off 180*..Then with the timing mark set for #1 TDC, then the 10* dent on the pully to set static timing..Then used the test light and coil to set it correctly...


#1 where the # 1 spark plug wire actually is, and should be #3 instead?
If so, check the spark timing at the other 180 degree spot on the distributor. If same good, if not.....

If you mean the distributor is spun around, but #1 cylinder spark wire is in right spot next to mark in the distributor that is fine.


Distributor housing position is 180* off...Plug wire location is correct as if the distributor was installed correctly....So plugs are getting spark at the correct time for each cylinder...It's all good for now...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor 180* out??.... Reply with quote

Bassdude404 wrote:
Ok, so I'm doing the valve adjustment for the first time on my bug...Googled the topic and found a bunch of different write-ups...So I read them thoroughly and head out to thew garage armed with all this info..Should be a piece of cake, as I do them on my bike all the time, and used to have a '71 Chevy pickup with a solid lifter 327 small block...I get into it and something just ain't right...Valves are so tight the car shouldn't even run..So I enlist my wife to spin the motor over while I watch the valves from below...Still not jiving with what it should be and I just know that it isn't going right...So I come back in here and do more research..Then I checkout this you-tube vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozht-_iu3Ew&feature=related

And I notice at approximately the 2:15 point in the vid he points out where the rotor should be pointing for #1 cylinder...WTF??...Mine is 180* opposite his!!..Hmmm...So I go out and take the camera with me and check one more time to be sure...yup, the little moark in the distributor housing is opposite the one in the video...So for shits and giggles I keep turning the engine over until the rotor is pointing opposite the mark in the housing and the valves that should be loose are now...

So my question is how in the hell was this car able to run at all if the distributor is installed 180* off??...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ink pen pointing to mark in distributor housing....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Again Very Happy ? What happens in a 4 cycle engine after TDC firing on any cylinder? If you could line up the pulley with crankcase split line you'dhave a 50 50 chance of being on #1, if not on #1 you'd be on 3 but could turn engine in either direction one full turn and be on #1 then using the 4 stroke senario of suck squeeze bang blow youd know that exhaust happens after TDC ignition stroke ......... photo indicates your dist is installed backwards, condensor should be behind facing fan shroud, wire looks like rubbing pulley.......... regardless it will run all jacked around like this if cap is wired 1432 CW ......... You could reverse position of driving dog on distributor which would give appearance of correct dist installation as this would turn it 180 degrees...... search this thread as its a topic beat to death probably under " finding TDC"
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I shoulda taken a pic of everything after I watched the valves open/close/etc, and found TDC with rotor pointing in the correct position...lol...
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wayne1230cars
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded

1) If your distributor is in fact an 009, then it likely does not have the built in 3 degree retard(only some of the early German produced 009's have that)
2) If the motor is set to TDC #1 and rotor is pointing to 4:30 -5:00, and #3 wire is at the notch, then the distributor drive must already be installed correctly and it is just the distributor that is wrong.
3) Carb adjustment is the last thing to be done in a tuneup. Hopefully that will help the idle stall problem.
4) Make sure your point gap is set to .016 and then check dwell. Many will tell you that although a 009 distributor timing can initially be set statically, it is best to fine tune it with a strobe timing light. There is a fair variation in 009's and with a strobe you can time it to total advance. Do a search and you will find this discussed at length. Again carb adjustment after you have set timing.
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wayne1230cars
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 makes a good point about the driving dog of the distributor. It is possible that this at some point has been removed from the distributor and reinstalled 180 degrees out. If you have got it running OK and can live with it the way it is, then don't worry. If you ever sell the car be sure and tell the next owner though.[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]
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Bassdude404
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayne1230cars wrote:
Eric&Barb wrote:
Problem is some distributors have # 3 cylinder lobe in the distributor retarded by 3 degrees.
So if you install # 1 cylinder in # 3 spot of the distributor and time it at that point, all of the other three cylinder will fire off 3 more degrees before they should. Possibly causing cooling problems and even engine damage.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=472822&highlight=retarded

1) If your distributor is in fact an 009, then it likely does not have the built in 3 degree retard(only some of the early German produced 009's have that)
2) If the motor is set to TDC #1 and rotor is pointing to 4:30 -5:00, and #3 wire is at the notch, then the distributor drive must already be installed correctly and it is just the distributor that is wrong.
3) Carb adjustment is the last thing to be done in a tuneup. Hopefully that will help the idle stall problem.
4) Make sure your point gap is set to .016 and then check dwell. Many will tell you that although a 009 distributor timing can initially be set statically, it is best to fine tune it with a strobe timing light. There is a fair variation in 009's and with a strobe you can time it to total advance. Do a search and you will find this discussed at length. Again carb adjustment after you have set timing.


Yup, I'm on it...Don't have a timing light, as I haven't had a vehicle that heeded one in a long time, and back then I borrowed my dad's...lol..Already checked point gap which was spot-on....I did forget to get new spark plugs today (yeah I know, duuuuuuh), but will do that tomorrow when we run to town for some other stuff...The do the carb for final tune up....Then take my honey for a ride in our new-old-car..... Cool
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