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monkeypower Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2016 Posts: 15 Location: Woodside, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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I've been having a problem recently where my engine will die if I brake in idle. I can recover if I lightly throttle soon enough after braking, but when I'm coming to a stop sign or tight turn downhill, I don't usually have time, and it usually dies.
This doesn't happen if its in gear, or if I roll up to the stop sign slowly in 1st and then brake.
I've found a lot of people saying this could be related to a power assist brakes vacuum leak, but I don't have power assist brakes ('67). I am running a 1600 DP engine, though.
My guess would be something related to the idle speed adjustment, except it only happens when pressing the brakes (I can coast just fine).
Could it be the throttle positioner? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51149 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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I suspect lean idle mixture or low float bowl level, the idle could be from crap in a jet or passage.
When you brake the fuel in the bowl heads to the front away from the idle circuit leaning it even more, if it's too lean already the engine quits. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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I had an engine with close to 1/4" of end play and whenever I came to a stop or idled down a steep hill the engine RPMs would drop and the engine would almost stall. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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monkeypower Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2016 Posts: 15 Location: Woodside, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Ah, hadn't thought of the basic physics–I'll check that.
If all else fails, I'll check the end play (but I really hope it isn't that). |
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lightice Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2012 Posts: 599
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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My 66 had a remote brake servo that I found under the passenger seat.
Had the same symptoms as yours. |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14269 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Do you have an idle cut-off solenoid? If so, try turning the little screw to override it and see if it still happens. I'm thinking your brake lights are robbing power and letting the plunger partially depress thus cutting off the idle circuit.
monkeypower wrote: |
This doesn't happen if its in gear, or if I roll up to the stop sign slowly in 1st and then brake. |
This part negates my theory but maybe your generator or alternator is turning faster and giving more juice in gear during the roll up. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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A 1600 DP is expecting a 34 PICT 3 carb with all three timing control mechanisms on the distributor and a pull off on the throttle for control of revs during idle down.
If you have an aftermarket distributor and/or carb, its likely some of this stuff is missing. _________________ .ssS! |
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monkeypower Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2016 Posts: 15 Location: Woodside, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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lightice wrote: |
My 66 had a remote brake servo that I found under the passenger seat.
Had the same symptoms as yours. |
You actually made me question it, but verified and no, don't have one.
Abscate wrote: |
A 1600 DP is expecting a 34 PICT 3 carb with all three timing control mechanisms on the distributor and a pull off on the throttle for control of revs during idle down.
If you have an aftermarket distributor and/or carb, its likely some of this stuff is missing. |
My carb is a 34 PICT 3 rebuilt solex from Tim at VolkzBitz, so this shouldn't be the issue. I'll verify the distributor is good, though. |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7050 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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does it make a difference if you are on the clutch or not? if you take your car out of gear, and take your foot of the clutch then the motor is turning your transmission. if your idle is low, or lean, that might be enough drag _________________ regards
Uli
----------------------------------------
'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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lightice Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2012 Posts: 599
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Glad you ruled out the brake servo, took me some time to actually find out what the heck was causing my bus to die. |
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monkeypower Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2016 Posts: 15 Location: Woodside, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Decided to drive around and try to reproduce, to see if I can rule anything out.
I tried braking pretty hard to let deceleration do its thing with the bowl level, but it turns out, this doesn't seem to be the problem (or at least not always). I was able to stamp decently hard, and never even get the red + green lights.
It seemed oddly correlated with braking the first time. If I went into idle, and then went on the brakes, I'd see the red + green lights. Then I'd take my foot off for a sec, and put it back on, braking just as hard as before, and no red/green.
And the last instance was when I was pulling into my garage, right at the very end (going 1mph), I switched it into neutral and went on the brakes to stop it, and almost stalled. So from what I can tell, it doesn't seem to be the bowl level, because I'd expect that to trigger mostly with the fast stops, and not with a super slow one. |
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VolkzBitz Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2009 Posts: 300 Location: Washington State USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Whilst driving, put the clutch in. Try this a couple of times, if it doesn't stall do the stop with brakes to make it stall. Let us know what happens. _________________ http://volkzbitz.com
Quality VW Solex carburetor restoration
[email protected]
Der Vergaser Meister |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5509 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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I have the exact same problem on my 1600DP at every stop sign or stop light she dies too unless I rev her up fast enough. While driving she is fine too. I'll be interested to see your solution as I suspect my carburetor is running too rich or.........other. _________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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mastorna Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 177 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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I had this issue. Might be worth checking your mixture and cleaning your jets just to make sure as that solved my issue. Petty basic cause. Test out your idle when the engine is warm. _________________ 1959 Type II Mango SO-23
1962 Type II Kombi Light Gray
1963 Type II Standard Sunroof SWR\BG
1963 Type II Deluxe MG\PW |
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Busape Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2017 Posts: 1
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Hi, I had a similar problem with my 64 in that it would stall every time I pulled up. Carby had loose bolt where it bolts onto the manifold and was sucking air. A simple fix. Maybe an air leak somewhere? |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14269 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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LAGrunthaner wrote: |
I'll be interested to see your solution as I suspect my carburetor is running too rich or.........other. |
What carb? |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5509 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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BarryL wrote: |
LAGrunthaner wrote: |
I'll be interested to see your solution as I suspect my carburetor is running too rich or.........other. |
What carb? |
From my gallery, I can't tell what type of carburetor it is but I do know the engine is a 1600D from a Super Beetle. (sorry for hi-jacking this thread)
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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60freak Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2002 Posts: 861 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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LAGrunthaner wrote: |
BarryL wrote: |
LAGrunthaner wrote: |
I'll be interested to see your solution as I suspect my carburetor is running too rich or.........other. |
What carb? |
From my gallery, I can't tell what type of carburetor it is but I do know the engine is a 1600D from a Super Beetle. (sorry for hi-jacking this thread)
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It's a 34 pict 3. An easy thing to check is the fuel cutoff solenoid (anti-diesel solenoid). It's the brass colored thing sticking out the left side of the carb with a wire on it. Sometimes they get gunked or bind up (or weak solenoid/coil) enough to prevent it from fully opening and allowing fuel to run thru the carb. Just grab it with channel locks or a 14 or 15mm wrench and unscrew it to remove it to check.
OP-I would check the fuel cutoff solenoid as well, it's very possible that your problem could be the solenoid as well. Hit brakes, draws current on a weak system and therefore a weak solenoid fails and shuts off......just a theory but something to check. |
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monkeypower Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2016 Posts: 15 Location: Woodside, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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VolkzBitz wrote: |
Whilst driving, put the clutch in. Try this a couple of times, if it doesn't stall do the stop with brakes to make it stall. Let us know what happens. |
Sorry, was out of town for a few days and just got back.
Tried it today, and I could never get it to stall with the clutch in. That being said, things seem to have started to "magically" get better. I tried really hard to get it to stall this morning, but I only ever got the warning lights for a second a couple times (with braking + neutral). With clutch in, I couldn't even get that.
The only thing I did was: open up the carb upper to try and measure the fuel level, and (unrelated) force open the air filter flap (because it's pretty warm here). However, someone mentioned that it could have been an air leak–In removing the carb upper, I did detach and reattach the tubing into the carb. Might have tightened/shifted it to get rid of any leakage?
In any case, I'll keep trying to get it to happen again.
The other two things I'm going to check are:
clean the jets
check the solenoid. |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5509 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Engine dies when braking in idle |
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Sorry again for hijacking this thread, 60freak is this what I need to remove? Is this the solenoid and do I need to disconnect the battery and clamp off the fuel line when I take it off and how should I clean it for proper movement? What does it look like inside of the solenoid and how does it work?
60freak wrote: |
LAGrunthaner wrote: |
BarryL wrote: |
LAGrunthaner wrote: |
I'll be interested to see your solution as I suspect my carburetor is running too rich or.........other. |
What carb? |
From my gallery, I can't tell what type of carburetor it is but I do know the engine is a 1600D from a Super Beetle. (sorry for hi-jacking this thread)
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It's a 34 pict 3. An easy thing to check is the fuel cutoff solenoid (anti-diesel solenoid). It's the brass colored thing sticking out the left side of the carb with a wire on it. Sometimes they get gunked or bind up (or weak solenoid/coil) enough to prevent it from fully opening and allowing fuel to run thru the carb. Just grab it with channel locks or a 14 or 15mm wrench and unscrew it to remove it to check.
OP-I would check the fuel cutoff solenoid as well, it's very possible that your problem could be the solenoid as well. Hit brakes, draws current on a weak system and therefore a weak solenoid fails and shuts off......just a theory but something to check. |
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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