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johnnypan Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 7431 Location: sackamenna
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: |
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And a 3% voltage drop at the coil is crucial? enough so that you add more connections and a relay?...dont get me wrong,I use them at work..we even use timer relays,with a momentary delay... I see the benefit of them, just be careful of masking an existing problem with them. |
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badufay Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2010 Posts: 361 Location: Olympia, WA
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, 3% might not be the biggest issue, with points. My point was more geared towards points replacement modules and low voltage. I've seen enough cars that won't start after installing these modules because a cold battery voltage sitting at 11/12 volts, dropp that down to around 10 or so at the coil, sometimes they won't start. Points are more forgiving in this case, and it causes a bad rep for Pertronix modules, etc... Again I just don't like running a ton of amps through VW ignition switches....VW really didn't fix their ignition switches until around 99 _________________ Current: 1976 VW Bus, 3 spd auto 2.0L FI; 2017 GTI S, 6 spd man; 2017 Jetta SE TSI, 5 spd man; 2006 Golf GL 2.0L, auto
Previous: 2015 Golf S TDI, 6 spd man; 2015 Jetta SE TDI, 6 spd man; 12 Jetta 2.5L, 04 Jetta 2.0L, 02 Golf 2.0L, 98 Jetta 2.0L, 98 Golf 2.0L, 98 Cabrio 2.0L, 95 Golf 2.0L, 87 golf GTI 16 valve 1.8L, 86 Cabriolet 1.6L, 80 Audi 4000 1.6L, 76 Audi Fox 1.6L, 76 VW Beetle 1.6L, 74 Audi Fox 1.5L, 69 VW Beetle 1.5L |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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johnnypan wrote: |
....Much easier and less complicated to repair the bad Vw component than to wire in a relay. |
I'd wager the avg guy could wire a starter solenoid relay and an ignition coil relay into a `68-`71 before he pulled the back of the dash apart, steering wheel,and ignition out, replaced it, and got the steering wheel put back together.
It's not a fix, but it's an improvement in the system that'll allow the failing switch replacement to often be postponed, while making the future replacement switch have less potential for failure. |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
It was a good system when new with all German components, but that doesn't mean there isn't scope for improvement. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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owdlvr Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2008 Posts: 684 Location: Squampton BC
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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johnnypan wrote: |
Relays allow low amperage control switches function high amperage tasks,they are used in modern cars to reduce cost of components and wiring.
Use in Volkswagen applications,from starter relays to headlight relays is generally to mask a failing switch,harness or component.Much easier and less complicated to repair the bad Vw component than to wire in a relay. |
19super73 wrote: |
dingdow wrote: |
I would like to change my headlight, wipers, emergency switches to toggle switches. (I like they way they look and feel). Can you design a wirng diagram to do this for a 68 bug for me?? Thanks - Ding |
Sell the '68 and buy a 1303. You will get what you want except the wipers. |
These two posts are so painfully typical of "Samba Advice". Thankfully common sense has prevailed in this thread...
-Dave _________________ ---
Instagram: @DaveHord
1971 1302s - Salzburg Tribute the #RallyBug
1958 Beetle
1975 Beetle
1973 Super Beetle
1993 C3500 with Cummins swap
1967 MGB
1963 MG Midget |
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badufay Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2010 Posts: 361 Location: Olympia, WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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^ Dave ???? _________________ Current: 1976 VW Bus, 3 spd auto 2.0L FI; 2017 GTI S, 6 spd man; 2017 Jetta SE TSI, 5 spd man; 2006 Golf GL 2.0L, auto
Previous: 2015 Golf S TDI, 6 spd man; 2015 Jetta SE TDI, 6 spd man; 12 Jetta 2.5L, 04 Jetta 2.0L, 02 Golf 2.0L, 98 Jetta 2.0L, 98 Golf 2.0L, 98 Cabrio 2.0L, 95 Golf 2.0L, 87 golf GTI 16 valve 1.8L, 86 Cabriolet 1.6L, 80 Audi 4000 1.6L, 76 Audi Fox 1.6L, 76 VW Beetle 1.6L, 74 Audi Fox 1.5L, 69 VW Beetle 1.5L |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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Paul Wright Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2004 Posts: 425 Location: Memphis, Ind
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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badufay wrote: |
nice! Here is an example of relaying the headlights too... (not mine, but I used this when I did mine, found this from another thread)
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So you are coming right off of the light switch and not using the 8amp fuse, and installing a 20A??
(79bug)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_79.jpg _________________ I may not be good.......but I sure am slow!! |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Not off the actual light switch, its off each feed from the fuse box or flasher relay.
Whilst the above setup is good idea, it allows for higher wattage bulbs and takes the load off the headlight and ignition switch there is one bad (potentially dangerous) aspect about it.
The low beam and high beam run off 1 common fuse each so that means if you are driving along and the fuse pops you will lose both lights.
Stock setup has a fuse for each side you are still left one light if a fuse pops.
When I ran my relays like above I left the stock headlight fuses alone, I just run the output from each new relay to the connection on the fuse box that feeds the high and low beam fuses instead so each left and right light has its own individual fuse still. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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'69Custom Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2008 Posts: 2497 Location: Ventura, California
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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I've had the notion to run a relay in my ignition circuit to improve cool voltage for some time. I believe I understand the how's but I don't want to attempt it unless I'm sure. Can any of you provide a schematic? I do better visually and I'll be certain if I'm right or wrong. _________________ -Tim
1969 Frankenbug
1965 Ford Mustang
:2gunfire: F-U-M-P!
~"I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken." ~The Boss
Please excuse any typos as my iPhone doesn't speak English very well.
tham64 wrote: |
Why tune a big round again and again????? For me.... 1 hour will solve the case |
www.endlesscustomz.com |
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OG lil E Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2005 Posts: 24 Location: Mile High City
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hate to dig up an old post to ask a question, but this thread has been very helpful.
My '73 standard has a bad voltage drop problem when I turn on the headlights. The alternator is ok, as I tested it and it is charging correctly.
I'm going to do the headlight relay like in the above schematic.
I used to work in a Mercedes shop, and I've used the Mercedes relays like the one in the link in the past on similar projects with great results.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=mercedes+relay&...&ty=94
In my junk box, I came across an old Mercedes fuse block that I want to use for this project. It is identical to the one in this link. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=mercedes+part+numbe...&ty=60 It has two terminals, each having a blue ceramic 25 amp fuse.
My question is, in the schematic, it calls for a pair of 20 amp fuses. I'm planning on using the bullet style ceramic fuses for this, and they don't make a 20 amp fuse. Would a red 16 amp fuse be enough? Or should I use a 25 amp fuse for each relay? Would the 25 amp fuses be too much? I don't want to risk any meltdowns or electrical fires.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. I'm running Hella headlights with high power bulbs. I can't remember the wattage of them right off hand, but I believe they are 55/100 watt bulbs.
Thanks for any help..........E |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Easy problem once you know the math....
(55x2)/13.5V (ideally higher) = 8.1A
so...
(100x2)/13.5V = 14.8A _________________ (3) '69's
'67 Baja
'74 Super
'73 Bay
(2) '77's |
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OG lil E Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2005 Posts: 24 Location: Mile High City
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Chris Vellat wrote: |
Easy problem once you know the math....
(55x2)/13.5V (ideally higher) = 8.1A
so...
(100x2)/13.5V = 14.8A |
Thanks for the response Chris. So, if I understand correctly, I should be able to get by with an 8 amp fuse for the low beams, and a 16 amp fuse for the high beams. Right? E |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:12 am Post subject: |
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That may just work, but the best bet if your wiring is rated (do you know what wire gauge you will use?) for it would be to fuse both relays @ 16A, and run 8A fuses to each beam...Six fuses total. That also gives you room to run brighter lamps in the future. _________________ (3) '69's
'67 Baja
'74 Super
'73 Bay
(2) '77's |
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OG lil E Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2005 Posts: 24 Location: Mile High City
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Chris Vellat wrote: |
That may just work, but the best bet if your wiring is rated (do you know what wire gauge you will use?) for it would be to fuse both relays @ 16A, and run 8A fuses to each beam...Six fuses total. That also gives you room to run brighter lamps in the future. |
I was planning on running the gauge wires that are recommended on the schematic. 12 gauge on everything but the relay trigger and ground wires which could be 18.
I don't plan on upgrading to different (brighter) headlights. The only thing I thought about doing in the future would be to add some foglights. But, the only way I would ever consider doing that is if I can get my charging system to run more efficiently, what with the relays and all.
You mentioned running 16 amp fuses for the relays, that I understand, but what would be the advantage of running more fuses after the relays? Also, where would you wire them in? Between the stock low beam wire and high beam wire and terminal 86 on each relay, and then after the relay on the headlight output wire between terminal 87 and the headlight? E |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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garyt Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2015 Posts: 763 Location: Burgundy
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: 79 FI cab |
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Would the relay system for the starter circuit be ok on the fuel injection engine? Wiring is more complex. Thanks.
Looking at the Bosch relay kit. |
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garyt Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2015 Posts: 763 Location: Burgundy
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Well, I put on the Bosch relay starter kit just as it said in the instructions and it works fine, had to re-route a wire because the ones it comes with are quite short. Starter always fires now. I am still looking for the original problem though and think it is the fuel pump/filter, or possibly pressure regulator. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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If the hard start relay "fixed" all your problem it is likely an issue with "old wires".
Over time the wires build resistance due to oxidation. This reduces the current flow. Less current makes it to the ignition switch and from the switch to all devices.
The HSR reduces the current flowing through the ignition switch. The current needed to activate the starter solenoid is now coming straight from the battery, through the relay to the solenoid.
This frees up current at the ignition switch and may make more current available for the fuel pump and ignition.
The fix to the "old wire" problem is to clean all connections. You may need to cut and replace some terminal ends on wire as the corrosion may be between the wire and the terminal. The oxidation works its way under the insulation a bit so you need to clip the ends until you get good conductive strands for the new terminals.
Alternatively... install a new wiring harness will get you good connections. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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