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DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit
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garyt
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you can tell the wires are old because they seem to get stiff and brittle. Anyway I have checked and cleaned all of them. I found a problem with the pressure regulator that must have been the original and was dented and rusted and had blackened fuel coming from the vacuum line.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

Also had to change the starter switch (the plastic bit), found it was all black inside, cracked, and full of liquid gunk which was probably causing shorting.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ret1614 wrote:
Submit requests for relay wiring diagrams? I'll make them


I have a newer style emergency flasher switch. One terminal on it is a switched ground. The other terminal, if 'hot', makes the light in the switch light up. No matter if the knob is pulled out or not.

I have fog lights that can only be on when the headlights are on. (state law) When the fog lights are on, the re-purposed emergency flasher switch, that turns them on, also has the light in the switch 'light' up to show that the fog lights are on. The fog lights are not powered by the headlight switch but by their own separate 'always hot' #30 wire. When the headlights are turned off the fog lights turn off if they are on and the switch light goes out also. Simple circuit? Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runamoc wrote:
I have a newer style emergency flasher switch.

Is this the round knob type or toggle switch type? Part#?


runamoc wrote:
One terminal on it is a switched ground. The other terminal, if 'hot', makes the light in the switch light up. No matter if the knob is pulled out or not.

What are the terminal numbers you are referring to?
There are three terminals that affect the internal light in the switch:
    #31 - ground wire for the bulb

    #58b - dash illumination 12v+. This is powered by the headlight switch #58b terminal. There is an internal resistor in this circuit to further reduce the current flow thru the internal bulb. This causes the internal light to glow dimly while the parking lights are ON. Also, since the dash lights have a dimmer function (rotate the headlight switch knob) the light grows brighter/dimmer as the speedo illumination lights change.

    #30 - Input source when E-Flasher switch is ON. When the E-Flasher switch is ON this circuit powers the flasher relay (via "+" output) and will also brightly light up the internal bulb as it powers the bulb directly without a resistor.



runamoc wrote:
I have fog lights that can only be on when the headlights are on. (state law) When the fog lights are on, the re-purposed emergency flasher switch, that turns them on, also has the light in the switch 'light' up to show that the fog lights are on. The fog lights are not powered by the headlight switch but by their own separate 'always hot' #30 wire. When the headlights are turned off the fog lights turn off if they are on and the switch light goes out also. Simple circuit? Cool

Ahh! So you want to use the E-Flasher switch to power your fog lights.
Unless this is just a spare switch that you are not using there are less expensive ways of doing this. But lets assume you have a spare switch (and not using the actual E-Flasher switch since this is usually a requirement for all road traveling vehicles in most locations Surprised ) and want your fog lights to match your other switches.

Ideally, you don't want the current to power the fog lights passing through the E-Flasher switch. This much current will eventually wear out the contacts inside the switch. You want the switch to power a relay that actually powers the fog lights.

Here is my suggestion:
"Fog light switch" wiring
    #30 - input source. Splice into the #56 (white/black) wire running between the headlight switch and the dimmer relay. This will only allow the fog lights to work while the headlights (hi or lo) are ON.
    Note: This circuit is NOT fused. You may want to add a small inline fuse to protect the fog light switch.

    #31 - ground for the internal bulb. This is not needed for the switch to work, it is just for the bulb.

    #58b - dash illumination. Connect to grey/red wire from headlight switch #58b terminal. Original wiring had a second wire from E-Flasher switch to the heater lever illumination lamp.

    (+) or #49 - output to activate new relay #85 terminal

The other terminals on the "fog light switch" are not needed.

New fog light relay (30A Bosch-style SPDT relay?)
    #30 - The 12v+ constant source you are already using. If this source is not fused, you want to add an inline fuse here that can support the load of all your fog lights (but does not exceed the capacity of the relay or the wiring). You also want to use the proper gauge wire that will carry the needed current for your fog lights. This one wire will need to carry the current for ALL your fog lamps.

    #87 - 12v+ output to the fog lights. Again, want to use the proper gauge wire that will carry the needed current for your fog lights. Hopefully your kit came with the correct sized wires.

    #85 - Input from fog light switch #49 or "+" terminal. When powered, this will turn the relay ON.

    #86 - ground (#85 and #86 are interchangeable; it does not matter which direction current flows through them)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

Quote:
Is this the round knob type or toggle switch type

Looks like this but a different shaped knob.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I have found that this type of switch must be mounted in the dash so that the switched ground can work on one terminal and by mounting it in the dash also provides a ground for the indicator light in the knob that's fed (+12v) by the other terminal on the switch. The light is 'independent' of the switches position.
Quote:
#58b - dash illumination

I guess I could connected the knob indicator light bulb to the dash dimmer.

Actual emergency switch is a DPST switch where the rear window defroster switch use to be.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

I believe that is a "early" '66 E-Flasher switch. Here is another I found in the Classifieds:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1745277

These were very simple switches but would be more complicated to use as a fog light switch since it only supports switching ground ON/OFF and not an incoming circuit.
The newer E-Flasher switches ('68-later) have many more terminals and allows switching of an incoming circuit.

You could use it to trigger the relay that powers the fog lights, but making it dependent on the headlight switch being ON would be much more complicated.

I'd think you would need two relays... one relay for powering the fog lights, the other for disconnecting the switch to relay circuit until the headlights are ON.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

Quote:
think you would need two relays

This is what I came up with. Works. Fog lights can only come on with the headlights on and the re-purposed emergency switch knob pulled out (on). Turn either the headlights off or push the knob in, the fog lights cut off.

I needed this circuit because I'm getting forgetful, sometimes Confused and would forget to cut the fog lights off when getting out of the car. Have'nt had much trouble remembering to cut the headlights off..yet. Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

I like it!! Nice, clean and simple. Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

I am struggling with my 1964 ghia headlight relays. I purchased the relays from jay Brown (beautiful relays for vanagon) But am lost on the connections. I have the brown to ground.

My issue is:

1- the reds (2)- can I run them off the headlight switch power from battery? If so with a fuse in between?

2- I have the floor dimmer switch, so which wire do i plug the heavier gauge yellow and white into, and what do i plug the lighter gauge yellow and white into?


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

vw donvieira wrote:
I am struggling with my 1964 ghia headlight relays. I purchased the relays from jay Brown (beautiful relays for vanagon) But am lost on the connections. I have the brown to ground.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Those look like two 20A-50A Bosch-style SPDT relays with pigtail plugs. It would be best to post a pic of the wiring diagram for the relays. If they didn't come w/ a diagram, sometimes the relays have a diagram printed on them. Take a pic and post.
Worst case, remove the relay from the wiring plug and post a pic of the bottom of the relay where the terminals are numbered. We need to understand which colored wire goes to which terminal #.

Most Bosch-style relays are numbered :
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


#30 - common input
#85 & #86 - coil +/- (6v-15v; low amp)(either of these can be positive or negative)
#87 - normally open output (connects to #30 when relay is powered)
#87a - normally closed output (connects to #30 when relay is un-powered)(probably not used in your case)

It may also be an SPST relay which is the same but without the #87a terminal:
http://media.futureelectronics.com/ELECTROMECHANIC...G?m=NiWrn8

Without knowing which colored wire is connected to which numbered terminal it is hard to suggest how you should connect your relays. I can think of at least two ways the relays would be set up.


vw donvieira wrote:

I have the floor dimmer switch, so which wire do i plug the heavier gauge yellow and white into, and what do i plug the lighter gauge yellow and white into?

The floor dimmer is shown here in the '65-earlier Ghia wiring diagram as J2 in the upper left:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The switch has one input wire #56 (white/black) which is 12v from the headlight switch and two output wires (white & yellow) that go to the fuse box where they power two fuses each. White is high beams, yellow is low.

With two relays, the easiest setup would be for the white wire from the dimmer switch powers the relay with the white wires. The yellow wire from the dimmer switch powers the relay with the yellow wires.
Whether the dimmer switch wire goes to the yellow or red relay wire depends on how it is wired to the relay terminals. Post your relay terminal numbers and which color wire goes to which terminal.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

the relays are :

-red to power #30
-brown to ground.
-heavy gauge yellow to dimmer low beam OR fuse panel ?
-heavy gauge white to dimmer low beam OR fuse panel ?
-light gauge yellow to dimmer high beam OR fuse panel ?
-light gauge white to dimmer high beam OR fuse panel ?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

vw donvieira wrote:
the relays are :

-red to power #30
-brown to ground.
-heavy gauge yellow to dimmer low beam OR fuse panel ?
-heavy gauge white to dimmer low beam OR fuse panel ?
-light gauge yellow to dimmer high beam OR fuse panel ?
-light gauge white to dimmer high beam OR fuse panel ?

We need to know which terminal on the relay each of the colored wires goes to....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

#85 (or #86) should be connected to ground. The other should be connected to the dimmer switch output. This is the trigger. It is unclear if the trigger wire is the thin yellow wire or the red wire.

#30 on the relay should be connected to the headlight switch #30 terminal. This is constant 12v+.

#87 should be connected to the fuse box where it powers two fuses.
If your relay is an SPST w/o the #87a terminal, then #30 and #87 can be swapped.

Ideally, #30 and #87 wires should be the same gauge and heavy enough to carry the current for the headlights.
#85 and #86 can be very small gauge wires as the relay coil will only draw a very small current to turn ON.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

Quote:
We need to know which terminal on the relay each of the colored wires goes to


One relay with the white wires looks like it controls hi-beams, the other with the yellow wires controls lo-beams. The use of these two relays, to me, looks like an add on for a stock switch/relay so that higher current lights can be used without burning up the stock dimmer switch/relay.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

I spoke with the guy at wiring works, the maker of the Ghia harness.

-He said there is no headlight relay, that the foot dimmer switch is what changed the lights from hi/lo beam.\

-The wires from the dimmer are a heavy gauge yellow, white, and white-blk that goes to the headlight switch.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

vw donvieira wrote:
I spoke with the guy at wiring works, the maker of the Ghia harness.

-He said there is no headlight relay, that the foot dimmer switch is what changed the lights from hi/lo beam.\

-The wires from the dimmer are a heavy gauge yellow, white, and white-blk that goes to the headlight switch.

Yes, the stock wiring harness did not come with a headlight relay(s). Who told you that a stock '65 Ghia came with a headlight relay?

vw donvieira wrote:
I am struggling with my 1964 ghia headlight relays. I purchased the relays from jay Brown (beautiful relays for vanagon) But am lost on the connections.

I thought from the above you were trying to make the Vanagon relays work in your Ghia as an upgrade over the stock wiring (which came without relays). This is a common upgrade when using headlights that draw more power than the stock 55W sealed beams, or when your old stock wiring adds too much resistance to get the full performance out of your headlights.

If your stock headlights work fine, just leave them as is. Relays are not a requirement. So, what are you trying to do?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

badufay wrote:
VW Beetles push a lot of power through the ignition switch. This part (IMHO) is the biggest contributor to voltage drop in VWs. Even with new wires, connectors and switches, these cars can easily exceed 3% in voltage drop (13.5 volts at batt w/ car running, then no electrical item should have less than 13.1 volts)
This is why I run relays on every major power consuming item in my car (wipers, headlights low & high, coil, rear defroster, and after market heater assist fans) ...here is a picture of your standard 12 volt relay setup you can buy at any auto parts store for around $6.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Adding a relay simply uses the original power wire as a switch to the relay with minimal power required. I'm sure this will offend many because it didn't come stock, so feel free to call me "The P.O."
Besides improving the electrical systems overall performance and safety of your car, it can also help with engine performance gains (calm down, I'll explain). Again, voltage drop in these cars is going to happen...The (+) wire to the coil runs a long way before it actually reaches the coil, this added distance and things mentioned earlier can often times leave your coil 2 whole volts below the battery voltage. This alone will impact voltage to the spark plugs, thus reducing power and fuel economy. A full shot of power to the coil and from the coil will have your ignition system running like new, if not better. It has been my experience that voltage issues to the coil are the biggest problems with point replacement products like pertronix (that and being hooked up backwards). Pertronix states that when using their product, spark plug gaps can be increased by 0.005", which means you can gap your VW plugs (NGK B5HS) to about 0.030"! I know some will argue that its nothing but a points replacement part, I can tell you on my 1600 w/ a relayed Bosch Blue coil and pertronix, my car runs amazing with a gap of 0.030".
Feel free to disagree, but hopefully this can help some people out.
Below are some diagrams I made to show exactly what I'm talking about...(note, some circuits have the fuse on the other end of the on/off switch, but the principle is still the same)

here is a picture that shows the stock setup....lots of amps being pulled a long way and through a ton of contacts and switches
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


now here is a picture showing a relayed circuit. The "switching power is reduced to minimal (can be as low as 4 volts in a lot of cases, putting "zero" load and stress on the VW system. The main power comes directly from the power source through the relay (which is made to handle 30-40 amps, plenty for a VW system)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




I have a 73 914 and would like to create the 12v coil driver wire with a relay, but as wired above the ignition switch does not kill the engine. What is keeping the relay on? I'm losing 2V when starting at the coil and that is just enough to keep the Pertronix ignition from firing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

nine9three wrote:
I have a 73 914 and would like to create the 12v coil driver wire with a relay, but as wired above the ignition switch does not kill the engine. What is keeping the relay on? I'm losing 2V when starting at the coil and that is just enough to keep the Pertronix ignition from firing.

Give this article a read. It is for an MG but it is the problem you are experiencing. I had the same issue when I installed a relay for my ignition coil. You need to install a diode in the Gen light circuit.
http://www.mgtoronto.com/pdf/Tech/ignition-run-on.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
nine9three wrote:
I have a 73 914 and would like to create the 12v coil driver wire with a relay, but as wired above the ignition switch does not kill the engine. What is keeping the relay on? I'm losing 2V when starting at the coil and that is just enough to keep the Pertronix ignition from firing.

Give this article a read. It is for an MG but it is the problem you are experiencing. I had the same issue when I installed a relay for my ignition coil. You need to install a diode in the Gen light circuit.
http://www.mgtoronto.com/pdf/Tech/ignition-run-on.pdf


Thanks for this!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

http://www.speedyjim.net/htm/elec.htm

Here's a good resource for many common issues

Once again,don't wire a relay into a circuit to repair an issue without actually repairing the root cause of the problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: DIY: Here's how to add a Relay to an electrical circuit Reply with quote

Hello . . . I have the embarrassing mess pictured under my '72 super beetle rear seat. Good news is that it is pretty reliable and starts. Bad news is that it didn't tonight. The electronics power on (so it's not the battery), but when I try to start it . . . nothing.

I'm looking for any insight on the first thing to do in order to remedy this ugly situation. Should I install a new relay? Should I just take it to a shop? I tried scuffing up some of the connections to remove any corrosion, but without success.

The last time this happened I left it alone for a few hours, then came back and it started. Confused

Any reply is appreciated. Thank you.

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