So, which is best? |
Subaru Engine |
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42% |
[ 114 ] |
Type 1 |
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38% |
[ 103 ] |
Type 4 |
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19% |
[ 54 ] |
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Total Votes : 271 |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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emberblade wrote: |
....3119cc....giant killer bug...200hp....I know these engines are highly volatile...durability... |
TROLL ALERT.
Besides that, I propose this thread go no further until you tell us whether you have the required $15,000 to bring such an engine to life. Sorry, but there's just too much riff raff on this site to accept such a goal from a new poster as a real one, seen too much of that. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vw_hank Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2001 Posts: 5371 Location: Everett WA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
emberblade wrote: |
Yea, I don't want a Subaru engine really, just a curiosity, especially seeing how powerful they seem. The weight, however, makes them less interesting, especially with it all hanging off the rear end like that. I don't just do straight lines when I drive. Plus, I wanted it to be a Bug, or at least look like one, even in the engine compartment. And I suppose that in the end, it isn't REALLY a bug anymore after that kind of surgery.
I like the Type 1 for the lightweight package, but the Type 4 seems to be a better base for further modification, even if it involves experimentation instead of going with perscribed modifications to the block and components.
So it seems the Samba has spoken, and the Subaru engine should be left to the Subaru. (Especially given the level of bodywork needed to make it look even slightly stock again after you're done with the conversion).
My plan has always been to create a super powerful sleeper, so this is good stuff to think about. |
You should really do some research and talk to people who have actually done the conversion before coming out with crap like that cos half of that is baloney.
Geez anyone would swear these engine were 20000kg heavier than a VW the way people on here ramble on.
Mine's less than 25kg heavier than my 1776.
I lose that sort of weight after a morning shit. |
I know 2 guys with bugs and one with A bus(DC), running "suby power" I cant talk about the weight,, other then the HP gane would more then make up for any weight gane! But I do have to say, And I know you well agree with this Joel, It's not A bolt up and go conversion!! there is A ton of custom fabricating you'll need to do to make it right.... I guess you could just bungee cord the radiator to the hood
Me, I love the "look" of the type-1 motor, It is A thing of beauty,, same as the old flat head ford motors... I can just sit in ah looking at them all day _________________ 1302s sunroof..
1600cc motor. Glenn ring 010. full toplineparts.com suspension. factory front disk brakes. Tram type-3 rear brakes. Hurst shifter. empi-8's. low-back's. tons of mods! |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Yes there's definitely some work in it but it's an option for people who just want a fit and forget cheap high performance engine that needs stuff all maintenance, gets excellent mileage and lasts for ages.
I've owned my current bug for over 13 years, the handling is absolutely no different through the bendy stuff with the subi engine
Certainly a conversion is not for everyone, when someone finds me a 175hp VW engine that gets 30+mpg, only needs an oil change every 10,000kms, lasts over 300,000kms untouched and only costs $500 to replace if I break it I'll gladly swap back. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7216 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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I am - of course - pro aircooled. but I will admit that I have recommended a Subie conversion a couple of times over the last year or so, to bus people. especially campers that are heavy, and owned by people that donīt know squat about maintenance. The alternative would have been a power stroke type 4. But they are getting so expensive to build from scatch that the Subie conversion begins to look interesting.
For daily bugs, I still recommend WBX engines, because they "fit right in". But prices on quality spare parts for these engines also have a tendency to increase. And if you chase a little hp in conjunction with a rebuild, they easily produce 130-140 hp...
T |
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vw_hank Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2001 Posts: 5371 Location: Everett WA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
Yes there's definitely some work in it but it's an option for people who just want a fit and forget cheap high performance engine that needs stuff all maintenance, gets excellent mileage and lasts for ages.
I've owned my current bug for over 13 years, the handling is absolutely no different through the bendy stuff with the subi engine
Certainly a conversion is not for everyone, when someone finds me a 175hp VW engine that gets 30+mpg, only needs an oil change every 10,000kms, lasts over 300,000kms untouched and only costs $500 to replace if I break it I'll gladly swap back. |
Woo Joel,, I wasint knoking the suby motors you can git A lot of HP cheep!! I just wonted to point out that there is A radiator, hoses, wiring, and other stuff that needs to be delt with. _________________ 1302s sunroof..
1600cc motor. Glenn ring 010. full toplineparts.com suspension. factory front disk brakes. Tram type-3 rear brakes. Hurst shifter. empi-8's. low-back's. tons of mods! |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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_________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Sanny Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008 Posts: 159 Location: Los Osos, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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evil is uncool... |
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retroman Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2010 Posts: 227 Location: Reno (What is Rust???)
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: Suba what? |
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I have a VW because I want a VW. I do not want "electronics', or any high tech crap. I can fix my 71 Bay anywhere I go. I just dont see the point of defeating the simplicity! That's just my opinion. _________________ 1967 bug recovering from a PO
1987 Vanagon Wolfsburg Weekender "Otto" been all over the place with never a problem! |
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sactojesse Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 2655 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: |
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I have one of each: a 1966 ghia convertible w/ a 2110 cc Type I engine pumping out around 120 hp and a 2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT wagon w/ a turbo EJ25 putting out around 300 crank hp. Both are great!
That said, however, the only VW I'd ever consider putting a Subaru engine in would be a water-cooled Vanagon. KEP went through a lot of trouble getting a CARB sticker for its EJ22 Vanagon swap, so it's smog legal for us Californians. _________________ 1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
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emberblade Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I know the engine weight difference isn't much, but the placement is farther back. You have to do some serious cutting into the body to get a Subaru to fit in the back of a bug, which takes away some weight I suppose. This is all conjecture. That's why I asked instead of jumping headlong into this.
Anyway, that's all behind me now. Personally, I'd rather have something a little less intimidating to work on than a modern car engine.
So it's a VW engine for me. If I did do some kind of big bore Type 4, I'd probably have to have the heads custom made for this application. I don't know the measurements off the top of my head, I'd have to look it up some more and call around, but that's for another day.
I agree that a Type 1 with a mild turbo would be easiest and most cost effective.
...And yea, it's gonna cost quite a bit.... I've estimated a total cost of parts to be around $18k... And that's assuming I do all labor, paint and bodywork myself. But I'd rather spend on something fun like this than something I can't work on and feel no pride in.
Plus, this thread isn't just for me, I just wanted a straight up comparison of these powerplants. It's good to understand the ups and downs each engine brings to the table. |
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manoa Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 198
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:42 am Post subject: |
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emberblade, cool decision
A moderator will be on here any minute to transfer this thread to the subi forum of theSamba. _________________ -----
(o\ ! /o)
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69bajaguy Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Subi vs. Aircooled. The practical decision is obvious, really. With the Subaru you get much more power, longevity, and reliability with a waaaayyyyy lower price. But then again, if we were "practical" people, we wouldn't all drive Volkswagens from 40 years ago. Us VW people are a little bit hard-headed it seems. For instance, I could have done a Subi conversion and it would have cost half what my 1915 has cost, while giving me more power, etc. I decided to stay aircooled because I can fix the thing myself if anything goes wrong and I can say that I built it myself. Of course, with the Subi, there would be a much lower chance of something going wrong and it would be a bit less work. If some of ya'll looked in the offroad section, you might be horrified at some of the things that take place. Lots of Subi swaps, one or two Toyota swaps, etc. There are even people that cut up ovals to make bajas For me, the simplicity of a VW is possibly the most appealing part of it. But it all just depends on the person I guess. |
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Koyote Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2008 Posts: 193 Location: Dijon, home of the mustard.France
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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69bajaguy wrote: |
Subi vs. Aircooled. The practical decision is obvious, really. With the Subaru you get much more power, longevity, and reliability with a waaaayyyyy lower price. But then again, if we were "practical" people, we wouldn't all drive Volkswagens from 40 years ago. |
Well said !! that's exactly the reason why I run a draw through turbo, instead of an injection blow through. I am very well aware that is not a wise decision, and I was thinking about that...
But franckly I like to see my speed demon over the top of my T1 engine. There is no reason here. _________________ 2276cc daily draw through. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20379 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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You want brash horsepower in simple form, EJ 2.5 with MS....
You have to do a expensive build on a VW motor to get near the standard horse power a Subie delivers....
Dale _________________ Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Chris Vellat Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2004 Posts: 1590 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Suba what? |
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retroman wrote: |
I have a VW because I want a VW... |
Precisely...I've driven, been passenger in, and worked on a few Subarus - the engine is the only piece I want. WRX's, STi's, SpecB's...don't care for their cars. _________________ (3) '69's
'67 Baja
'74 Super
'73 Bay
(2) '77's |
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sullydog93 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2004 Posts: 157
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Subaru is a good choice if you want big, reliable power and only oil changes for regular maintenance. Not the true ACVW experience,
it sounds way different, it drives different, it smells different.
Not to mention a variety of ways to have great heat.
The weight difference is about 70 lbs behind the axel and 100 lbs
for the pipe, radiator and coolant (na 2.5) minimal cutting in later
year bugs and ghias.
Just dropped by Outfront in Buena Park and I am a believer.
The loom and computer is $1,500, about 20 wires from the engine
to the computer. One + from the key and one ground wire from the computer. Stock engine with stock fuel injection, 190 hp +.
Do it yourself for under $4,000 - how can this not be the future for
the casual enthusiast with a need for speed? |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm actually surprised this thread didn't get locked, there has been several identical threads over the last couple of years.
The main ones I've noticed that are really against conversions are the old die hard air cooled nuts that just want to stick with what they know and seem to be alergic to modern technology...
What? no pushrods?
More than one cam GTFO of here.....
Conversions are alot more common outside the US as it's still alot cheaper to build a high power VW engine there and Subarus aren't as common.
They are like the plague here which is why you can go to any junk yard and come out with a good engine for $500.
emberblade wrote: |
I know the engine weight difference isn't much, but the placement is farther back. You have to do some serious cutting into the body to get a Subaru to fit in the back of a bug, which takes away some weight I suppose. This is all conjecture. That's why I asked instead of jumping headlong into this.
Anyway, that's all behind me now. Personally, I'd rather have something a little less intimidating to work on than a modern car engine.
So it's a VW engine for me. If I did do some kind of big bore Type 4, I'd probably have to have the heads custom made for this application. I don't know the measurements off the top of my head, I'd have to look it up some more and call around, but that's for another day.
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They aren't a flat 16 engine....
The long block size is the same as a VW engine, infact they are half an inch narrower.
It just the timing belt covers you're thinking of and what most people do with quad cam motors is move the gearbox forward which gets it all under the body.
Twin cam engines like my EJ25 hybrid fit with no body work, the handling isn't effected which is why all the subi converted bugs round here are out on the track leaving behind the turbo AWD WRXs, skylines and Porsches.
Power to weight and low center of gravity is a winning ticket. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Saw a subi to vw conversion kit on the portland craigslist a few days ago for around 500 bucks including the engine and brain box. just looked for it again but it's gone. |
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toddgsanford Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2003 Posts: 442
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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2 cents here
by the time you adapt the subaru engine to your transmission. get all the fuel and iginition worked out buy a good subi engine that doesnt have 200k miles on it for reasonable you will have spent more than you would having a reputible builder build a solid high output motor.
I drive an 08 subaru work in the recycling industry and see few subarus @ 3% of what we buy we buy, most of the subarus we see are wrecked bad or have a bajillion miles on it. If your thinking affordable or practical swap not so much. now if you want the all wheel drive componenet thats a whole different conversation and straight up crazy talk. but that would be cool
Last edited by toddgsanford on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bugnut68 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003 Posts: 4180 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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69bajaguy wrote: |
Subi vs. Aircooled. The practical decision is obvious, really. With the Subaru you get much more power, longevity, and reliability with a waaaayyyyy lower price. But then again, if we were "practical" people, we wouldn't all drive Volkswagens from 40 years ago. Us VW people are a little bit hard-headed it seems. For instance, I could have done a Subi conversion and it would have cost half what my 1915 has cost, while giving me more power, etc. I decided to stay aircooled because I can fix the thing myself if anything goes wrong and I can say that I built it myself. Of course, with the Subi, there would be a much lower chance of something going wrong and it would be a bit less work. If some of ya'll looked in the offroad section, you might be horrified at some of the things that take place. Lots of Subi swaps, one or two Toyota swaps, etc. There are even people that cut up ovals to make bajas For me, the simplicity of a VW is possibly the most appealing part of it. But it all just depends on the person I guess. |
I agree with you on all counts. I once read VW people described as "eccentric." It took me awhile to own up to/fully understand it, but I fully get it now. |
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