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Nate M. Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003 Posts: 1306 Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: My Shop-car build thread |
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I've been working on a '67 Square for a few years off and on with a goal of making my humble Square into my official ProVolks Shop Car. I'm not a nicknaming kind of guy, but my kids dubbed it "the road cow" due to my liberal use of POR-15 on some rusty spots. . . Since my shop is an Air-cooled VW & Porsche shop I am re-creating the Square into the wagon that Porsche never made and updating it to more modern technology, performance and comfort whenever possible. The side goal is that this car must be a true sleeper (not too hard considering it's a wagon). It's funny; the car gets lots of looks as it goes down the road. But I suspect most of them are looks based on the premise, "who the h*ll would drive a hideous car like that?" That would be ME!!
I know from experience that if you look at a project as one big job, it'll likely never get done, because the whole thing is pretty overwhelming. So I have broken this into about 5 phases.
Phase-1 - transplant a low-mileage Porsche 914 2.0L motor in the back, convert it to Megasquirt2 V3 with EDIS ignition and get it tuned and daily drivable. I took a long time doing this because it was a steep learning process on the MS and I have customer cars to do, so my cars always take a back seat. Phase one was completed this past September with the help and expertise of Mario Velotta (www.thedubshop.net) getting the MS set-up and tuned.
Phase-2 - Pull the motor, tear off all the tins and get everything powder-coated. Also ceramic coat the exhaust black so it disappears into the back of the car in keeping with the "sleeper" theme. I got phase-2 finished in December 2011 after 2 months of catching the locals off-guard in the "cow" While it was out, I took the liberty of swapping out the dished stock 94mm P&C for a set of flat-top 96mm P&Cs. So the displacement is now 2056cc.
Phase-3 - Remove the stock swing axle rear suspension and convert it to the later IRS. Use urethane bushings throughout, upgrade to adjustable spring plates, add a rear sway bar (handling is a top priority). Convert the rear drums to Porsche 914 rear disc brakes. And finally add a Porsche 923 (915-based) 5-speed from a wrecked '76 Porsche 912E.
So for I'm still on phase-3. I've got the suspension all done. The rotors and calipers fitted. The 5-speed fitted and installed. Rear engine hangers fabbed and installed. I'm currently working the shift linkage. I'm not ready to let the cat out of the bag on this yet, but it has a virtually un-modified vintage VW shifter and the shift linkage is a combo of early VW/Porsche/custom/aircraft parts to make it all work. Once finished I'll post-up pics (I just don't want to jinx it ) I also need to get the clutch cables made and a few other loose ends.
Nice and stealthy. . .
Phase-4 - Get the front-end modified. I'm keeping a lid on this for now, but when finished I'll post-up pics of it as well. It's going to be ambitious and something I've never seen done on a T-3. . .
Phase-5 - Paint. I've been doing some favors for a friend that paints cars and he's agreed to paint this as payment for my help on his projects I love bartering; it shuts the door on the gub'ment fingers getting in the till. _________________ Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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EatACactus Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2010 Posts: 223 Location: Wareham, Mass
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supaninja Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010 Posts: 4020 Location: houston
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VWporscheGT3 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2006 Posts: 2076 Location: Gardnerville, NV
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: |
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I like this one already _________________ Schnell, SCHNELL!
I like being wrong, Because, it is another opportunity to learn. If you stop learning from your mistakes than what is the point?
If you have any questions about Forged ICON 4032 VW pistons just shoot me a line. |
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Sqrbckguy38 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2004 Posts: 415 Location: Tooele, ut
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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nice type4 style motor... and yeah thats kinda what it looks like. love the stealthy thing ya got goin. keep it up. _________________ It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the bottom.
69 Square needs love, even after 15 years
70 Fasty former dd, now my daughter's
67 Beetle, Opal |
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VWporscheGT3 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2006 Posts: 2076 Location: Gardnerville, NV
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: |
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^ wha......? before i open mouth and insert foot, what do you mean? _________________ Schnell, SCHNELL!
I like being wrong, Because, it is another opportunity to learn. If you stop learning from your mistakes than what is the point?
If you have any questions about Forged ICON 4032 VW pistons just shoot me a line. |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17968 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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'67 was the Best Year for Seatbelts, although yours need a tuneup. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22410 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Nate, I followed part of this build on STF (in the type4um), and only really saw the early "phase 1" part of it, as I don't spend a lot of time there. I think you had carbs on it while building up the MS part of it, so you could drive it back then. I'm glad you were able to get as far as you have though, as I always liked that build (putting a t-4 engine in a T-3), as it seems not enough people were doing it, and we know Jake had moved on to his own forum/site. When you were doing yours, I was also working on mine at the time (a 1.7L 914 engine into a roofless 71 Square), and looked at what you were doing on some things.
How do you like the MS? Was it everything that you thought it would be? Just asking, because I see you're using the t-4 style intake system, and what looks like L-jet injectors. Nick's been trying to get me to swap to it, but, like you, I'm usually busy doing stuff for others. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Nate M. Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003 Posts: 1306 Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Supaninja: you're EVERYWHERE
Bobnotch wrote: |
Nate, I followed part of this build on STF (in the type4um), and only really saw the early "phase 1" part of it, as I don't spend a lot of time there. I think you had carbs on it while building up the MS part of it, so you could drive it back then. I'm glad you were able to get as far as you have though, as I always liked that build (putting a t-4 engine in a T-3), as it seems not enough people were doing it, and we know Jake had moved on to his own forum/site. When you were doing yours, I was also working on mine at the time (a 1.7L 914 engine into a roofless 71 Square), and looked at what you were doing on some things.
How do you like the MS? Was it everything that you thought it would be? Just asking, because I see you're using the t-4 style intake system, and what looks like L-jet injectors. Nick's been trying to get me to swap to it, but, like you, I'm usually busy doing stuff for others. |
I actually never put carbs on it. I had a complete and ready to bolt-on set of Weber DCNF 40 carbs that I could have used at any time, but i know that if I did that, the MS would never leave the box again. I forced myself to bull through. So it just was not on the road all that time. Mostly because I delayed a long time sending it to Mario. . . Within what amounted to a few days of on-off working on it in his spare time, it was running like a screamin' banshi!! It was one of those occasions where I thought, "why the hell did I wait so ling to take it to him??" No one to blame but ME and my own stubbornness!! Plus, like I said, I would end up not even being able to touch it for 6-9 months at a stretch many times
The MS and EDIS ignition is absolutely fantastic. I will never go back to carbs on my own cars ever again. Super smooth acceleration, instant (and I mean instant) throttle response. My timing is spot-on throughout the entire RPM/load range. It's so smooth that it will pull from 30mph in 4th gear (albeit not real hard at that rpm but it does so smoothly). Carbs would never do that. While carbs are simple to set-up and relatively cheap, they are nothing but a bunch of compromises in the end.
It does take some tuning and there was in my case a fairly steep learning curve (and I still only know just enough to be dangerous). Keep in mind that I did do most things in kit-form so I was a soldering fool for many evenings. _________________ Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13848 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I like your build up on the vehicle. Keep my eyes open for the mad cow. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22410 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Nate M. wrote: |
Supaninja: you're EVERYWHERE
I actually never put carbs on it. I had a complete and ready to bolt-on set of Weber DCNF 40 carbs that I could have used at any time, but i know that if I did that, the MS would never leave the box again. I forced myself to bull through. So it just was not on the road all that time. Mostly because I delayed a long time sending it to Mario. . . Within what amounted to a few days of on-off working on it in his spare time, it was running like a screamin' banshi!! It was one of those occasions where I thought, "why the hell did I wait so ling to take it to him??" No one to blame but ME and my own stubbornness!! Plus, like I said, I would end up not even being able to touch it for 6-9 months at a stretch many times
The MS and EDIS ignition is absolutely fantastic. I will never go back to carbs on my own cars ever again. Super smooth acceleration, instant (and I mean instant) throttle response. My timing is spot-on throughout the entire RPM/load range. It's so smooth that it will pull from 30mph in 4th gear (albeit not real hard at that rpm but it does so smoothly). Carbs would never do that. While carbs are simple to set-up and relatively cheap, they are nothing but a bunch of compromises in the end.
It does take some tuning and there was in my case a fairly steep learning curve (and I still only know just enough to be dangerous). Keep in mind that I did do most things in kit-form so I was a soldering fool for many evenings. |
Ok, that was my mistake. That's what I get for going from memory.
That engine did come from 1 of your customers cars though. I think I remember you saying he wanted a 6 cylinder instead of that engine. But you had said that, that engine ran really well (when you got it), and then you had the 67 Square fall into your lap.
Good to know on the MS. I keep hearing good things about it. Do you use it to control the EDIS? Or is the EDIS stand alone? I'm only asking, because Nick prefers to use the MS to control the spark, especially now that he has the coil on plug set up.
Look forward to seeing more pics, and hearing more about your car. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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supaninja Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2010 Posts: 4020 Location: houston
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captainphil Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2011 Posts: 25 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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While I think this is bitchen and would love a Porsche engine and 5 speed, this seems to be significantly over my head technically.
Will continue to follow and admire from a far. Will also save the thread, because you never know when a totaled 914 with a good engine might fall into my lap
Dude, I will say I covet your skills and your car. Keep it coming.
CP |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22410 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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supaninja wrote: |
EDIS gives MS the tach_in signal, then MS tells EDIS when to fire the coils. I would call it quasi-standalone. It's one of those things that if you already have it then use it, but if you are in the parts acquisition stage and don't have it yet then do direct fire. Direct fire gives you more features and freedom in wheels, crank position sensors, and coils. Direct fire/EDIS>all distributors
Bob MS is calling you |
I figure IF I do it, it'll be on the t-4 engine. Since it's a high comp stock engine (has domed pistons), Ray says that the timing needs to be spot on, and the MS sounds like the way to go with the fuel too. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Angelo Amato Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005 Posts: 83 Location: Wirral, england
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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cool.
keep the updates coming.
t4 into t3 goes ! |
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JSMskater Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006 Posts: 5362 Location: Murrieta California
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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this is sooo rad.
_________________ 71 Squareback-FI -- 73 Bay (subaru powered)
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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flyboat Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2010 Posts: 2752 Location: Bath NC
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Hi Nate, did you use jigs to set the irs hinges or is there another safe way. If you had jigs would you rent them out.
looks really cool. My wife saw the cow coralation too _________________ 79 super Vert
62 Ragtop Bug
66 tintop Westy
Porsche 914
09 Z06 Vette track car |
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flyboat Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2010 Posts: 2752 Location: Bath NC
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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One other question, how did you adapt the 914 calipers to the arms? I have heard there are adapter brackets for the 914 to type 1 but I can't find them. _________________ 79 super Vert
62 Ragtop Bug
66 tintop Westy
Porsche 914
09 Z06 Vette track car |
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Nate M. Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003 Posts: 1306 Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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flyboat wrote: |
Hi Nate, did you use jigs to set the irs hinges or is there another safe way. If you had jigs would you rent them out.
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I just swapped out the entire early swing-axle rear suspension sub-assembly for a later IRS sub-assembly. Un-like all the other VWs, ours unbolt with just 9 bolts.
flyboat wrote: |
One other question, how did you adapt the 914 calipers to the arms? I have heard there are adapter brackets for the 914 to type 1 but I can't find them. |
I used readily available aftermarket caliper brackets and modified them for the 914 caliper bolt spacing. Only took about 1 hour to modify the pair. _________________ Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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Randall Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004 Posts: 1403 Location: Orange County, Alta California, El Norte
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nate M. wrote: |
The MS and EDIS ignition is absolutely fantastic. I will never go back to carbs on my own cars ever again. Super smooth acceleration, instant (and I mean instant) throttle response. My timing is spot-on throughout the entire RPM/load range. |
Here are a bunch of YouTube videos of MS with EDIS in VWs.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=megasq...62l2-1l1l0 |
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