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madspaniard
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Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 2779
Location: Alameda, CA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: | | $375 for the Burley adjustable perches? For me, that doesn't solve any problems, it just creates a new one. How do you justify that much for mounts when you're installing $75 springs? Ugh. |
I don't usually look at things that way. If I am Ok with how my suspension performs then there is no need to look further. If I am not content then I look for options. Just because I spent $75 (great deal) in springs doesn't mean I won't be willing to continue my search for a fix if I can afford it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me, the price of one component does not have any effect on the next if they all mean my problem will be solved.
Talking about perches, I'm not well informed to make a decision yet, I think I need more info.
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1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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outwesty
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2006
Posts: 658
Location: Carnelian Bay, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| bluefirefly wrote: | I would like some adjustable shocks for those big 215/85-16 summer tires and lighter 215/70-16 in the winter.
Have a good day |
I didn't think 215-85-16 tires would even come close to fitting on a van.
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TDI swapped 89 westy, Red 87 Syncro, 86 Syncro VR6, White 87 Syncro, 97 Jetta TDI, 81 DeLorean DMC-12 |
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burleymotorsports
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Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 120
Location: santa barbara ca.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: | | j_dirge wrote: |  |
Where is the bump stop? |
Had I known those pics were headed for public display I would have furnished pics of the completed product, this is only a ''Mock up '' picture taken during the R&D process.
The final product is similar , but different.
No pics available of the production units yet.
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www.burleysmotorsports.com world class custom Syncro parts |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| burleymotorsports wrote: | Had I known those pics were headed for public display I would have furnished pics of the completed product, this is only a ''Mock up '' picture taken during the R&D process.
The final product is similar , but different.
No pics available of the production units yet. |
Cool, didn't realize it was unfinished, looks like a good setup. Didn't mean to get anyone in trouble. 
What's the advantage of the larger spring vs the smaller one you had before?
The pivot plate is an intriguing idea. I went with air bags as they can be unparallel without problem but otherwise it's a bit funky in the rear. Have you considered clamping the spring down on the lower side?
| insyncro wrote: | Weak  |
Dang Dylan I think you need to take a chill pill, or maybe three! 
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 4071
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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I always assume anything I send out by email is public domain, will be passed along, or will get to someone it was unintended for. Just the life we live in today when dealing with an electronic media and world. It only had to bite me in the ass once and I learned a good lesson.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 7719
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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That pivoting rear perch looks familiar 
runs back out of 2wd discussion again...
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SyncroFest Schadenfreude!
Insert every car that i have ever owned list here. |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| syncrodoka wrote: | That pivoting rear perch looks familiar
runs back out of 2wd discussion again... |
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." 
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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buildyourown
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Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1300
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: | | "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." |
There is no such thing as an original idea.
If the market was satisfied, then there would be no room for competition.
Last edited by buildyourown on Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| buildyourown wrote: | | presslab wrote: | | "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." |
There is no such thing as an original idea.
If the market was satisfied, then there would be no room for competition. |
Yes of course, just poking fun. I have absolutely no problem with people making things that look like other people's things. Some people on here get all bent when someone's widget looks like someone else's doo-dad. It's not rocket science. May the best product win.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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buildyourown
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1300
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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@presslab:
I wasn't making you own that. I get what you are saying, but people are getting worked up over being copied. The originals were hard to buy. They weren't "for sale" via any traditional channels. Burl has added the adjustable feature of his design and made the perch easier to manufacture. If he does all this and actually offers them for sale then he has earned my money. |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 7719
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I must have missed some posts, I didn't see anybody getting worked up. The other version was for sale in the classifieds here for a while.
What is the advantage of making the spring straight when the van is at full extension when almost all 2wd vans (and many syncros) will never got to that point?
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SyncroFest Schadenfreude!
Insert every car that i have ever owned list here. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 42172
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Now unlocked.
I did some clean up, mostly of posts that were edited out by various users.
I am guessing there was confusion about certain things:
1. Why some photos were posted publicly. The owner of the photos has stated there is no issue posting them.
2. Possible duplication of 2 different people's designs.
If this is true, that is an issue between those 2 people they need to discuss off-line and this thread is not a place to argue about that back and forth.
Feel free to continue... 
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How to: Post Photos | Search
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"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints" |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: | | Now unlocked. |
Thanks Mr. Moderator!
| syncrodoka wrote: | | What is the advantage of making the spring straight when the van is at full extension when almost all 2wd vans (and many syncros) will never got to that point? |
I was somewhat wondering the same myself, what is the advantage of a straight spring? However I think that reaching full extension happens more than you'd think, consider even a deeply dipped driveway that you drive out of at an angle.
I think the "small spring" design (non-pivoting) was okay, but I think there were possible rubbing problems, because the spring was tweaked. I don't think it would be good practice to have rubbing, even if it were at full extension. Also, when I looked at the spec's of the small springs, they would be getting close to coil bind upon compression. Larger springs won't have that problem.
The pivot perch seems cool but overkill. Like I mentioned before maybe the bottom of the spring could be clamped down somehow? This would allow larger springs, so no rubbing, and the spring would stay put. Maybe a stepped plate, top and bottom, to center the spring. And then on the bottom, have something like a U-clamp or a hook to keep the back down. This would keep the larger spring on the perch.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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bluefirefly
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Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 238
Location: Calgary,Ab
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: | | EverettB wrote: | | Now unlocked. |
Thanks Mr. Moderator!
| syncrodoka wrote: | | What is the advantage of making the spring straight when the van is at full extension when almost all 2wd vans (and many syncros) will never got to that point? |
I was somewhat wondering the same myself, what is the advantage of a straight spring? However I think that reaching full extension happens more than you'd think, consider even a deeply dipped driveway that you drive out of at an angle.
I think the "small spring" design (non-pivoting) was okay, but I think there were possible rubbing problems, because the spring was tweaked. I don't think it would be good practice to have rubbing, even if it were at full extension. Also, when I looked at the spec's of the small springs, they would be getting close to coil bind upon compression. Larger springs won't have that problem.
The pivot perch seems cool but overkill. Like I mentioned before maybe the bottom of the spring could be clamped down somehow? This would allow larger springs, so no rubbing, and the spring would stay put. Maybe a stepped plate, top and bottom, to center the spring. And then on the bottom, have something like a U-clamp or a hook to keep the back down. This would keep the larger spring on the perch. |
Thanks. 
Not sure if I like the idea of the spring be "clamped" down (not saying it is a bad idea either).
That pivot perch looks really nice and a serious upgrade for tough lifted Syncro (IMHO).
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86 Syncro Vanagon
almost re-done.... |
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wolfsburg4x4
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Joined: December 20, 2004
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:04 am Post subject: |
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This thread ( from Feb 2011 ) clearly documents the origin of the pivot perch design, and the alternate world class 2.5 slinky spring with adjustable perch design:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451960&start=0
My pivot perch has been in service for years on a multiple heavy syncro westies which travel many rough roads with no issues whatsoever
Each heim joint used in my kit has the strength of 10285 lbs, and I use four of them for a total of over 41000 lbs. Strong enough ?
The photo which Jon Slider posted which shows the 2.5 spring installed in the Feb 2011 thread happens to be my van. The creator of the 2.5" design installed it on my van while I was away, without asking my permission, which he obviously knew would not be granted because of my disapproval of that design.
| buildyourown wrote: | | There is no such things as an original idea |
Maybe you write this because you've never had an original idea...maybe you should dig a little deeper up that nose and look for one
| presslab wrote: | | Yes of course, just poking fun. I have absolutely no problem with people making things that look like other people's things. Some people on here get all bent when someones widget looks like someone else's doo-dad. It's not rocket science. May the best product win. |
You may find it funny, and this sort of attitude is what is fueling knockoffs of everything...
Look for a knockoff "Jack Bombay roof hatch strut lift kit" coming soon..etc etc.
I have no problem with different designs that are original, significantly different and improved even if they are somewhat similar. What I see here is none of those.
| buildyourown wrote: | | I wasn't making you own that. I get what you are saying, but people are getting worked up over being copied. The originals were hard to buy. They weren't "for sale" via any traditional channels. Burl has added the adjustable feature of his design and made the perch easier to manufacture. If he does all this and actually offers them for sale then he has earned my money. |
You can spend your money anywhere you choose. How many times has someone posted a question on where to get an item, and received a link or contact ?
I have not received any such inquiries.
Just because something is not listed on a website where you can add it to your cart doesn't give anyone an ethical reason for knocking it off.
| syncrodoka wrote: | I must have missed some posts, I didn't see anybody getting worked up. The other version was for sale in the classifieds here for a while.
What is the advantage of making the spring straight when the van is at full extension when almost all 2wd vans (and many syncros) will never got to that point? |
The "other version" is my original design as discussed over a year ago. How worked up would you be if you came up with an innovation, only to see it knocked off ?
If there is another pivoting perch like this anywhere ever before I came up with it , I would like to see it..If there is one, it would be by coincidence, I don't know of any.
As far as keeping the spring in line, all you have to do is look at the 2.5 coil spring loaded up making contact with the adjustable spacer, and carving into the lower trailing arm with the sharp spring edge. This is the stock spring has the small diameter tail, because it allows the rotation of the coil in the plastic seat which the trailing arm is designed for. All aftermarket springs with constant diameter coils eat through the plastic seats in short order.
I don't spend my time 24/7 on this forum like most people seem to do, but If there were an inquiry about the pivot perch, I would reply. I often talk people out of an item because the pivot perch is appropriate not for every application !
You will all find out the design flaws of having an adjustable upper spacer. One of the reasons I created the pivot perch was that it openes up a huge selection of springs, so it's just a matter of selecting the correct rate and length.
I'm sure the BMS groupies will block and or delete this posting or thread...but facts are facts and the fact is that the pivot perch is an original idea and innovation which is being knocked off for financial gain, and this community doesn't care
I would like to hear a public justification from Burley as to why he thinks it is ok to copy something so blatently.
world class Burley
Sincerly,
Eric Abercrombie |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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What you don't seem to be accepting Eric, is that EVERYONE copies someone else. Someone long ago invented the wheel, does that mean nobody gets to copy it? C'mon!
Look in the industry, look at all the new cars. They are all pretty much the same! They copy each other. Without borrowing ideas from others, there would be very slow progress.
If you patented your idea, then you have legal recourse. If you did not, you have no excuse for your moaning. Just be happy that you are progressing the technology of Vanagon suspension.
If you have the better product, people will buy yours instead of the copy. This is what you must strive for.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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r39o
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Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9008
Location: San Diego
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wolfsburg4x4
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Joined: December 20, 2004
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: | What you don't seem to be accepting Eric, is that EVERYONE copies someone else. Someone long ago invented the wheel, does that mean nobody gets to copy it? C'mon!
Look in the industry, look at all the new cars. They are all pretty much the same! They copy each other. Without borrowing ideas from others, there would be very slow progress.
If you patented your idea, then you have legal recourse. If you did not, you have no excuse for your moaning. Just be happy that you are progressing the technology of Vanagon suspension.
If you have the better product, people will buy yours instead of the copy. This is what you must strive for. |
I know perfectly well that people copy other other designs, thanks for acknowledging that this is an example of just that.
But this thread seems to ignore the origin of the design as if it were something new which Burley came up with. Yeah Burley, great idea...
No I do not have a patent and i have no legal recourse to stop copies of the design, but to see it passed off as a new "world class" design is just insulting
I am not motivated to sell as many pivot perches as possible, that is not what I strive for. |
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presslab
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Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1736
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| wolfsburg4x4 wrote: | | But this thread seems to ignore the origin of the design as if it were something new which Burley came up with. Yeah Burley, great idea... |
Ahh, the real reason emerges... And I agree with you! Some attribution would be appropriate. To jump on the fact he's copying you I find inappropriate, but some public recognition from Burl for your design would be a good gesture. What say you Burl?
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2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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j_dirge
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 3329
Location: The Outer Sunset, San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| wolfsburg4x4 wrote: | | But this thread seems to ignore the origin of the design as if it were something new which Burley came up with. Yeah Burley, great idea... |
I started this thread.. I organized the gathering. I cooked the sausages. I was the originator of the post that included images of that particular hardware.
I did not attribute the design to Burley. I did not attribute them to anyone.
The post has since been deleted per my request. And many added posts on the topic of who owns what and who did what.. were edited out by the auther of said posts.. not the moderator. The moderator simply removed the empty posts.
I asked the moderator to help get this thread back on track.. discussing IDEAS... and practical solutions.
I posted those images to discuss what/if any advantages are gained by the swivel.
There was an opportunity on day one those images showed in this thread to say.. "Hey, I am so-n-so.. And I conjured up this idea to .. <insert explanation>. They can be had for $xxx.xx at <location>"
And in fact SyncroDoka opened the door wider by asking what they do"
At no time did anyone suggest they were a new design. Nor was there a suggestion that it was Burley's design from soup to nuts.
If you would like acknowledgement, thats fine.
I remember where they orignated and perhaps I could have been more clear like I was when I said "own version" referencing a new take on the adjustable shocks.
I recall images of your perches from a year or so back. I thought it was a nifty idea then, too.. but not necessarily for me. Too many moving parts. I began thinking on them again, since a hand full of attendees to my little soiree.. were having a time of it, trying to get ride hieghts to thier liking with available spring sets.
To clarify.. My ride is just fine, as is. These perches (either version) may solve someone else's problems.. In my application they would just be a little more bling.
I've not a got a dog in this hunt other than to see our thread stay on topic.
I started this thread and organzed the gathering, in part, to discuss 2WD and avoid the abundant syncro energy that often overcomes these types of discussions.
We are reasonable people, Eric. I hope to meet you someday and visit in the real world.
No hard feelings. And there was never any intent to step on anyone.
Regards,
jim
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89 GL Westy, orig 2.1L WBXR.. Will it ever blow?
Well.. yes. It blew.. a big hole in the case. Time for a new engine.
| danfromsyr wrote: | those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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