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Oil filter opinions needed. Full flow vs screw on filter
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kyleader
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Oil filter opinions needed. Full flow vs screw on filter Reply with quote

Hey everyone. Well after driving the bug this fine morning I began to think about adding some protection to her via oil filters. I already have a screw on type oil filter mount that attaches to the oil pump under my flywheel. This part is genuine VW (Mexico) and I got the oil pump gears that it was attached to as well. Should I run this? Or should I go for a full flow system and mount my oil filter on the firewall? Thanks for the help guys!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using the set-up you now use (CB Performance) for three decades with my 1835 engine, good by me.
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kyleader
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, my bad. I meant to say that I have it on my bench, not my car. I took it off of a big at the junkyard and cleaned it up. Should I run the oil pump gears it came with or use my current ones? 1600dp is what I currently have. Also what oil filter fits on it?
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txny13
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont want to jump on your tread ,but i have a B case, with that set up with filter an all, thinking of puting it on my AE case both are the 1600 ,so ill be here to read on ,thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are two types, dished cam and flat cam, not sure what year they changed that, 70 maybe.
nice find in junkyard on that pump/filter combo, I guess the gears wear out just like any other oil pump, should check them probably.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got my engine out of my 79 Conv. Never used additional filtering, but need some advice. I read about drilling out for full flow on the inside of the case, but as my engine is newer didn't they have those improvements already?? So to ad a filter oil cover would that fit?? Or do I need to cut my tins??
My thoughts would be to ad a deep well pan under the engine and ad the filter /cover. Would that work on my vehicle???
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil filter opinions needed. Full flow vs screw on filter Reply with quote

kyleader wrote:
Hey everyone. Well after driving the bug this fine morning I began to think about adding some protection to her via oil filters. I already have a screw on type oil filter mount that attaches to the oil pump under my flywheel. This part is genuine VW (Mexico) and I got the oil pump gears that it was attached to as well. Should I run this?

yes. it works very well and is a simple installation.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyleader wrote:
Oops, my bad. I meant to say that I have it on my bench, not my car. I took it off of a bug at the junkyard and cleaned it up. Should I run the oil pump gears it came with or use my current ones?

The underlined bit makes it sound like you only removed the pump cover with the filter mount + the internal gears... didn't you also pull the pump body that holds the gears?

The pump body + gears + cover are a matched set. Covers can be swapped, but there are different gear lengths (21mm, 26mm, 30 mm). Also differences in the pump body can mean the overall drive gear length with shaft can differ even for gears of the same length.
You might be able to get the gears to fit into another body but the overall length of the drive gears need to be the same and the length of the input drive shaft needs to match so it fully engages in the cam slot.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
kyleader wrote:
Oops, my bad. I meant to say that I have it on my bench, not my car. I took it off of a bug at the junkyard and cleaned it up. Should I run the oil pump gears it came with or use my current ones?

The underlined bit makes it sound like you only removed the pump cover with the filter mount + the internal gears... didn't you also pull the pump body that holds the gears?

The pump body + gears + cover are a matched set. Covers can be swapped, but there are different gear lengths (21mm, 26mm, 30 mm). Also differences in the pump body can mean the overall drive gear length with shaft can differ even for gears of the same length.
You might be able to get the gears to fit into another body but the overall length of the drive gears need to be the same and the length of the input drive shaft needs to match so it fully engages in the cam slot.



Well thats good to know, but your right as I only pulled the oil filter adapter, and the 2 gears. I had read in my "how to rebuild your air cooled VW" book that there are different gears etc and some are better than others, but I guess I didn't catch the part where it's a matched set.

Pardon the noob qustion as I have yet to remove anything internal on my engine, but can't I run the spin on oil filter adapter (After I remove my oil pump plate)? And can my oil pump gears work with this new setup?
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kyleader
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some pics:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear, that is what I was afraid of.

You will need to go back and get the pump body.

Notice the two ports on the pump cover. One is inlet to the filter, the other is return. Most stock pump covers have no ports. Those covers used for full flow oil systems have a single port where oil exits the pump. The oil in a full flow system is returned elsewhere.
In the case of the oil filter pumps (like the one you found), the oil is returned to a second port in the pump body. Your stock oil pump body will NOT have this return port. You need to retrieve that pump body from the salvage yard, or give up on this pump. Too bad since it looks like a good clean filter cover.

If you go back to get the pump you should take a pump puller. The pump body is a tight fit into the case. It will typically not slide out easily unless you split the case.
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kyleader
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aw man... well I guess i'll be going full flow then haha. I'm going back to the junkyard friday but I got this a few monthes ago Sad. Can I buy any aftermarket or oem pumps on eBay that would fit my needed criteria? If not then i'll just go full flow I guess (Do i use my stock oil pump for a full flow setup?)

Thanks for all the help!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469722&highlight=oil+filter+pump

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=244334&highlight=oil+filter+pump
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, The more I think about it and my aftermarket exhaust I will probably run into problems with the fitting on a bolt on filter, so im pretty sure i'll go full-flow. Can anyone reference the how-to? I can't seem to find it... Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For reference:

This is a full flow pump (made from a stock pump) with a plug in the outlet port (bottom of pic). The plug forces the oil out the port in the pump cover instead of allowing the oil to pass into the case:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is the Mexican filter pump with return port (Notice there is no hole for oil to exit the pump and flow into the case; left side of pic):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Notice the extra return hole where the oil comes back and is routed into the case.


Notice in this pic, the different pump bodies even when the pump gears are the same length (26mm):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you plan to full flow your pump, the normal way is to disassemble the case so none of the shavings will get into the oil galley and bearings. But there is a method that can be use to full-flow without taking the case apart:
http://www.dune-buggy.com/techtips/fullflow/

You will need to remove your stock pump and install a plug like in the top pic.
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schadenfreude
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the real questions are: IMO
finding a quality integrated pump filter,. not many good ones made, lots of junk sold.
and not having it hit Exhaust parts or the crank pulley.

snow ball effect:

the full flow will require full engine, dis assembly.
because that will fill up the galleries, with mag/alum shavings.
plan on lots of that, for full flow.
then that migrates to pulling the gallery plugs that hide those said shaving.

see this orifice plug?, it is very tiny passages.
if forms an annular ring type orifice.
you need to be sure it is not contaminated. (#4 main feed)

snowball 3 is , now the plugs need, NPT tapping, causing more shavings
3 plugs need to be pulled minimum. and the 2 places plugged for the
old oil path.
each step is a risk step,



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


option 2 on said orifice is to remove it, plug it and use the newer style
bearing that have the re-stricter in the bearing shell actual. most do.
my metal leve bearings do,


last , is , if rebuilding? the engine.
1: make sure the case is worth this investment. ($300 + in machining)
2: no cracks, in case, no massive overheating distortions.
3: once the case is usable , do the cheap machining steps first (full flow)
4: decking.
5: line bore.
6: case savers ( reORDER , at the cost quotes of your machinist)

so, if one step destroys a case. you save big money.
or discovers a case VOID.?

one step that fails is the drilling step, first done with full flow.
you get 1 shot at it.
Full flow is best done at overhaul time, (IMO)

after doing mine, a new case was cheaper, so check that out.


Last edited by schadenfreude on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He has the OEM pump, albeit incomplete. The OEM ones are fine and they can still be had from several vendors.
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schadenfreude
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, for sure, but he needs to know that,. most sold are junk,"empi,etc"
the ones non OEM, or GBE.

the using air pressure and rags trick
IMO
is an illusion of safety.
sure the method works to a degree.

before starting ask your self?
how many shaving of metal can 1 bearing stand.
lets pick #3 rod bearing (i say zero)
and that before this venture, not one sliver junk was in the galleries to start.
as the Doctor says, "first do no harm" applies to engine, in spades.

that photo above has 1 gear upside down, the index mark is missing.
they are precision fit. and marked,

the pump is fit to the case, using what is called an interference fit.
if not , it will leak,
worst leak is not out side, but to the inside.
worst worst is suction side, sucking air.
the full flow blocks pump output side, and the block side.
but suctions side, must not leak after assembly.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BenJAMin wrote:
He has the OEM pump, albeit incomplete. The OEM ones are fine and they can still be had from several vendors.


Do you know what vendors still have that OEM filter pump? I bought one a few years ago, but about 6 months ago all I could find a listing for was the one CB Performance sells?
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schadenfreude
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think many folks here like CB.

i forgot to say FF is best, if you dont mind hoses or the risk they present.
guard them. and that is good.
they must not hit exh pipe, or be in harms way, sans guards, (mine is guarded, diy)
one of the best pumps is a SCHADEK, (best buy for the buck)
there are blueprinted pumps or you can DIY.
avoid over size pumps if not running custom non stock large bearing clearances. search the 30mm blues here in this forum.
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