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Brake help for new guy
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radb.us
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Brake help for new guy Reply with quote

So I've got a 73 bay and replaced the brake hoses on all four, new calipers and pads upfront and new shoes and cylinders out back. I'm bleeding the brakes and getting air for what seems like a day and half and know something is not right and all the sudden brake fluid comes out of the passenger side engine compartment.

So i find the culprit:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is not much in the way of pics in my Bentley that I can find on this area so I have what are going to be some pretty elementary questions for most of you:

1. What is this called as i obviously need a replacement.

2. Should I replace this "elbow" on the drivers side while i'm at it?

3. Why are the brakes tied in to the engine or are they? Probably a stupid question I know.

4. What is this line (vacuum?) that is tied to the servo and after 20 years of not being driven should i replace this as well?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


5. The image above is the same line on the passenger side coming through the engine compartment. I see that is plugged with a screw. I'm assuming again this is now how it should be so what is this replacement line called and where does it tie back in.

Thanks a ton in advance.
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Alex6373
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you checked the power brake booster?
sounds like you are pumping brake fluid down the vacuum lines from the booster ?
Mine was bad the p/o let it sit like that and fluid ran into number three and ruined the motor !
check the condition of the booster and large vacuum line that runs rearward make sure the master cylinder and booster are good!
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The "0" mark should be TDC and the "I" mark should be 27° BTDC, though there are variants out there.
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Desertbusman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you've got a big mess Laughing
You didn't tell us what year bus you have and I don't recognize the locations of your pictures.
But it looks like everything you are talking about and showing is probably involved with the brake booster. The brake booster has a large vacuum line connected to the rear side of it that operates the booster. That line runs the length of the bus, connecting the the engine intake manifold for it's vacuum source. And towards the rear of that line is a plastic check valve.
There is no brake fluid involved with the booster or the vac line and check valve. If that's where the fluid and leaks are in your picture then you've got a big problem to get resolved. No fluid should get to the booster. If so then the master cylinder is leaking into the booster and the master cylinder is shot. Replace it. If brake fluid has gotten into the booster then possibly your booster is shot or soon will be. If brake fluid has gotten into the booster and through the vacuum line and check valve then you are harming the engine.
Cant tell from your picture but there must be a breather line connected to the front to the booster. It connects to the booster valve that has the rubber accordian boot. The breather line then connects to a a steel line that goes thru the frame rail and into the driver front wheel well and into the body at the rear of the wheel arch. If the breather line is not hooked up the contamination will destroy the booster.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the seals in your master cylinder are bad it will fill the brake booster with brake fluid, so your master is probably bad and needs replacing. Second since brake fluid will attract water which will cause rust you need to totally remove any trace of brake fluid from the booster. The most effective way to do this is to just replace the booster.

I am not sure what you have plumbed up where, but there is supposed to be a single vacuum hose running from the booster back into the engine Bay where it will connect with an inline check valve before hooking into the intake manifold(s).
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radb.us
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i unhooked the vacuum line from the servo and brake fluid came out. Not good I assume. I'm reasonably sure that brake fluid made it all the way through the lines and in here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That said, what can i do to flush it out? It's already been in there a day?
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BUSBOSS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While you're in there, get yourself a engine seal and install it. Your brake fix will help you stop and the engine seal will help you keep going cool alot further than without it (unless it's already to late).
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Desertbusman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

radb.us wrote:
So i unhooked the vacuum line from the servo and brake fluid came out. Not good I assume.

Read the prior posts. Wink
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radb.us
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the prior posts Desertbusman and now it sounds like the bigger problem is brake fluid in the engine. I plan on replacing the booster and master cylinder but what to do to get the brake fluid flushed out so there is no long term damage?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a vacuum down the spark plug hole.......shop vac works good with the right adapters
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does that engine run at the present time?, I'd be more worried about all the crap that's laying around in there going into the fan than some brake fluid. If it's running (not likely since that RH balance tube elbow looks like it's missing) a few minutes running will clear out the brake fluid, if it's dead you'll have to flush it out with brake cleaner and oil the cylinders afterwards. Tube from the booster too.

If you removed the radiator cap on a water cooled car and saw all the crap in the rad wouldn't you be a little concerned?, the entire engine compartment is the cooling system on a VW and loose shit ends up blocking cooling fins, that always ends badly. Think of the decklid as the rad cap.
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Desertbusman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also replace the vac line from the booster to the engine. It's not brake fluid compatable and will probably now or later be messed up. Also the check valve in the vac line might be clogged or gumed up. It's plastic so the fluid probably hasn't harmed it. Just carefully wash it out with soap and water.

Sorry, I hadn't noticed where you had told us what year it is. I'm not familiar with the connections on your year and type of engine. But it sure is a filthy mess. If it was mine I wouldn't even attempt to get it fixed and running until the whole thing was cleaned up. Degreaser, pressure washer and tons of elbow grease. Filth like that is one of the quickest ways to cause major damage.

Your first picture is at the right side of the engine compartment evidently. But where is the location of the second picture. At the rear or up front?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desertbusman wrote:
Sorry, I hadn't noticed where you had told us what year it is. I'm not familiar with the connections on your year and type of engine.

Looks like a 73 from here.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Looks like a 73 from here.

Looks like a pile for here Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take the spark plugs out. Make sure it is neutral and crank it over.

BTW - check the oil first. watch out for black widows and recluse working on that thing.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desertbusman wrote:
Your first picture is at the right side of the engine compartment evidently. But where is the location of the second picture. At the rear or up front?


The second picture is the right front of the engine from underneath. You can see the support for the flapper valve and the pipe for the preheated intake air. Not sure what the blocked off hose/tube is.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Desertbusman wrote:
Your first picture is at the right side of the engine compartment evidently. But where is the location of the second picture. At the rear or up front?


The second picture is the right front of the engine from underneath. You can see the support for the flapper valve and the pipe for the preheated intake air. Not sure what the blocked off hose/tube is.

Some late 73-74 auto buses had a second port on the balance tube for the modulator and sometime the later EGR system, could be remnants of that.

Icky!
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radb.us
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks ton for all the help and I'm happy that it does not sound like a terribly big deal as long as it is cleaned up relatively quickly.

And Desertbusman I resemble that comment about it looking like a pile Smile. Picked it up for $500 a few months ago - was in the front yard of a trailer park in West Phoenix where it sat for 30 years.

It does not currently run and I suppose my rationale was that I'd get it to stop before I got it to start. A thorough cleaning is definitely in order.

A question on that as well. The PO put some type of haphazardly applied rhino lining type undercoating on most of the underside. I'd like to remove it as part of the clean up since it was so poorly applied. Any suggestion short of sandblasting? It is really built up in some areas and very thin in others so I don't think a sander would be the best method. But maybe not.
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Desertbusman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sure it's not the factory black undercoating?
Experiment to see if you have any ooptions with removing it. Scraping with a putty knife, solvent to dissolve or soften it, or whatever. Might even try oven cleaner. And like you say maybe sandblasting. No matter what it will be a big job. You might start with pressure washing. Take some wood blocks or ranps to a do-it-yourself car wash or get a $90 pressure washer from Harbor Freight. On mine I had to do everyonel of the things I listed here and it took weeks.
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