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Spitty1974
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Location: California
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: Bus Accident Safety... Am I paranoid? |
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I am new to the AC VW bus world. Since I was teen, I have always wanted one.
I finally bought one in January. I've spent my spare time on weekends working on it. My intentions are to do a repaint and not run the bus in the current paint, or a patina look.
Anyway, today I was thinking about the safety of the buses. I had previously read the article about the accident that Ronnie had from Oregon and also about the accident that Greg had from Souther Ca. I also made the mistake of looking online a bit.
Then, tonight I read the post from the guy who had his 21 hit from the back in Texas. And, I really am starting to worry about the safety.....I by no means am someone who worries about these things. I drove a 1986 Honda Civic Hatchback for over 17 years, and I'm sure it was pretty flimsy, but it did have a front end.........The posts and pictures have me paranoid with the front end of a bus.
I live in the Bay area, and we have a mild climate, no ice or snow.....It will only be used on weekends, and days off, not driven as a daily driver, mostly on nice days not in the rain.... I also plan to buy one of the more modern beam set-ups with the disc brakes up front for sure.......
I am not so worried about myself, as I am worried about others. I am aware that it is an older car and is not a responsive modern car.............I know anytime you hop in a car, or do anything else in this world there is a risk.......
The posts I mentioned really shook me up............Do others feel this way, does this cross your mind often?......I'm just questioning the safety for myself and my wife and down the road when we have kids......I want to use the bus to drive over the hill to Santa Cruz, and cruise to the beaches along HWY 1, and trips around town.
Thanks for your responses in advanced.
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33 Willys
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Joined: January 28, 2008
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Location: Alamogordo, NM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: Bus safety |
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| Spitty, point well taken. Most of the vehicles on the road today have a ton of iron between the headlights and the steering wheel. That puts a split bus and a disadvantage. The more you upgrade the better your chances are. Disc, more power, seat belts, high back seats and proper maintance just to name a few will help the odds. |
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Spitty1974
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Joined: September 30, 2011
Posts: 250
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Bus safety |
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| 33 Willys wrote: |
| Spitty, point well taken. Most of the vehicles on the road today have a ton of iron between the headlights and the steering wheel. That puts a split bus and a disadvantage. The more you upgrade the better your chances are. Disc, more power, seat belts, high back seats and proper maintance just to name a few will help the odds. |
Thanks, I know the discs brakes are a must for me. I will check the forms for better seatbelts. I was already considering a better motor than the stock 1966 motor that it currently in my bus.
It is funny, my parents divorced when I was three and my dad remarried and his new wife, my stepmother to this day, had a 1970's bay window van.....My dad drove the van often, and we all took trips in the van, over the hill to Santa Cruz, and to Oregon once.......I never seem to remember him worried about it, he just disliked working on it, as he is into old American 1940 Fords.
What other things can make the bus safer in terms of the mechanics? |
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norcalmike
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Joined: May 14, 2005
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Location: Campbell, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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proper maintenance and defensive driving is about all you can do. if it breaks down on the side of the road, call AAA. dont be buried under the hood trying to fix it on the shoulder. thats a good way to get creamed by an SUV on the cell phone. other than that, drive and enjoy.
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quartermilecamel 
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Joined: April 16, 2008
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Location: ohio
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Not driving your bus like you need to get somewhere today that you needed to be somwhere yesterday. Your bus is not a porsche. Dont drive it that way unless your going to put a porsche suspension front and rear on it. The odds get MUCH better when you dont drive 80mph. Put distance between you and Mr. asshole with one hand on the cell phone and the other hand on his girlfriends...... If they want to pass, let them.
You mentioned larger motor. What are your plans/driving habits? Id say if your worried about the odds then make them better. Disc brakes are good, power brakes are even better. Power brakes dont stop better but they do stop easier. Less pedal/leg pressure required for same stop vs non power brakes.
I had dual circuit brakes without the power assist. It was better, but with power, it was just that little bit quicker to stop. While going to work one day, in the mall parking lot.........the above mentioned mr asshole on cell phone wasnt looking where he was going. I was able to pull it down to almost a stop and tapped the rear monte carlo hub cap just scratching it. Yes, the person was cutting across the parking lot. With out the power assist I had just put on it the week before, I would have eaten the front end of that car. I know I would have because I hated the way it stopped before and the effort required to do so. After the power option, I didnt think about stopping as a pita anymore.
Not sure what year your bus is but unless its a 1967 bus, it will have a single circuit master cylinder on it. You try towing a 1966 beetle and stopping, with the dumb shit ex wife doin last minute turns in her 67 beetle cause shes lost, and just made a panic missed my turn stop.  I only missed her because the bus went over a bump and the wheels hopped a brief second off the pavement, and when they did, the wheels locked up! That was the reason I looked into better brakeing, as I should have hit her but by gods miracle I didnt. Go drive your bus in stop and go traffic, while thinking about the brakes, now go drive your honda, and you should notice that with the honda, you didnt have to think twice about stopping.
Get yourself a 3rd brake light, Especially if your bus has the round small tail lights! Get an L.E.D 3rd light and its even more eye catching!
Larger motor is good if you are having trouble getting on freeways. Larger motor is bad if your trying to mario andretti your bus, zippin in and out of traffic passing people, cause your late to your own wedding. Your future wife wont appreciate it if you scratch her bus and tear your tux.
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Spitty1974
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| quartermilecamel wrote: |
Go drive your bus in stop and go traffic, while thinking about the brakes, now go drive your honda, and you should notice that with the honda, you didnt have to think twice about stopping.
Get yourself a 3rd brake light, Especially if your bus has the round small tail lights! Get an L.E.D 3rd light and its even more eye catching!
Larger motor is good if you are having trouble getting on freeways. Larger motor is bad if your trying to mario andretti your bus, zippin in and out of traffic passing people, cause your late to your own wedding. Your future wife wont appreciate it if you scratch her bus and tear your tux. |
Where can I find more information about the power brakes? I know that the brakes on the bus are not like a modern car. That said, I'm all about making the brakes the best possible set up. I have no problem dropping the money on a very safe brake setup........My only reasoning for a bigger motor would be for increased speed when hoping on the freeway or expressway. I don''t want to race around in my bus, and I am not one to even dodge in and out of traffic with my modern 2011 Honda CRV, so no need for that..........I had seen a few post about the LED light bar set up on the back jailbars..........I am going to install that set-up for sure on my bus when the time comes...............Already married, got married in July 2011, no kids yet, but down the road..............My bus has the stock 1966 rear brake lights, they are of decent size, but still smaller than new cars.
Last edited by Spitty1974 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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norcalmike
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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You want a bigger motor and power brakes? Sounds like you want a late bay
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Spitty1974
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| norcalmike wrote: |
| You want a bigger motor and power brakes? Sounds like you want a late bay |
The power brakes were brought to my attention, I was originally just thinking disc brakes.........If a bigger motor gets me a bit more power to get up and go, I see that as a positive........I have no desire to make my bus a racing machine, or high performance.......Any non stock upgrades I make would be for safety purposes only, as I want the stock look and height, unless a slight drop in height would help the safety matters out.......No slamming for me.... |
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roamer
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Bus Accident Safety... Am I paranoid? |
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| Spitty1974 wrote: |
| Anyway, today I was thinking about the safety of the buses. [...] I am not so worried about myself, as I am worried about others. |
Good. The fact that you are thinking about it means you are already ahead of all the other drivers on the road that aren't.
A bus is what it is, a vehicle of the '50s & '60s that even then was slow compared to other vehicles, built when traffic speeds were lower, people were perhaps more polite on the roads  , and safety concerns were not as emphasized as they are now.
I think it is wise to understand the risks and limit your exposure, but a mistake to try to make a bus into something that it never was (whether for safety or other reasons). You need to decide whether you really want a bus, or some other vehicle. Many people used to comment on my Mazda Miata convertible, how they liked it except wished it was bigger, or had more power, or had a fixed roof ... They didn't really want one, they just liked the idea of it. The same happens often with buses. I think you really do want one, you just need to integrate it fully into your psyche.  Or perhaps vice versa.
You say disk brakes are a must, but I would disagree. Nice to have, yes, but properly adjusted drum brakes work well for the speeds that a bus will normally travel. Most of your stopping risks can be dealt with by planning ahead. You certainly won't be tailgating anybody, right?
Do the obvious things that you would do with any car - make sure it is well maintained and has good tires, working lights, horn, brakes, and so on. Make sure your battery and wiring is good, along with the brake lines.
Seatbelts of some kind (not necessarily 3-point) would be recommended at least up front, and can be added for back seats, though not typically required by law in most states. But don't expect them to work miracles. Remember, you can touch the front metal of the bus from the front seat.
A high-mount LED 3rd brake/turn light is useful due to the low height of the stock taillights that are not especially noticeable compared to modern cars. Discreet versions can be found that don't impact the stock look much, such as the BrakeLighter:
http://jandlenterprise.com/products/brakelighter.htm
I got one for my bus and feel a bit safer with it.
Your proposed usage sounds like it would limit your exposure to risk in a reasonable way. Stay off the highways as much as possible, where other traffic can travel, accelerate, brake, and maneuver at limits far beyond you. Above all, YOU are the biggest factor. You can't control others, but you can control what you do. Use that big windshield and great view to your advantage. Plan ahead when entering a road, planning a turn, watch your mirrors and traffic ahead and around you. Let people pass when they want to, don't be afraid to pull off the road to let them by. Use your 4-way flashers when you can't keep up speed climbing hills or under other circumstances to make yourself more visible. John Muir suggested that the highways would all be safer if we drove strapped to the fronts of our cars .. unfortunately we are pretty much in that situation, but everyone else thinks they are invincible. Don't give them a chance to prove it! There are no guarantees, but use your head to avoid dangers as much as possible.
My parents put over 300,000 miles on VW buses as we drove across the country many times in the '60s and '70s on camping trips. Granted, times were different then, but they never had any accidents. We just took a 6,000 mile camping trip to Colorado last summer in our '66 bus. I won't deny there were a few tense moments (mainly due to other traffic) on the highways, but all was well in the end. Travel on the slower roads wasn't a big deal.
My only reservation would be about traveling a lot with kids. Adults get to choose their own risks, but kids rely on others to do it for them. When I was growing up, we didn't have seatbelts in the back and used to crawl around the vehicle while moving. I felt it was safe enough then, and probably still is, but society has changed. Nobody worried much then about crumple zones or air bags or a bunch of other safety things. I think that when driven with care, it's fine to carry your family too (we don't have kids so it's a moot point for me), but that's a decision only you can make, and it may not be a bad idea to limit the risk in some way (fewer or shorter trips, or traveling with other vehicles, or whatever makes you feel most comfortable). For myself, I understand the risks fully, I feel reasonably capable of handling them as well as possible given the circumstances, and I'm willing to take what comes without constant worrying or complaint in return for that great feeling of driving a bus!
In the end, feeling comfortable about your decision is the most important part. If you can't have fun driving your bus, there's really no point in having it. |
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Spitty1974
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Posts: 250
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Bus Accident Safety... Am I paranoid? |
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| roamer wrote: |
| Spitty1974 wrote: |
| Anyway, today I was thinking about the safety of the buses. [...] I am not so worried about myself, as I am worried about others. |
In the end, feeling comfortable about your decision is the most important part. If you can't have fun driving your bus, there's really no point in having it. |
Thanks for the insight Roamer........Your points make sense......I don't think I am at a point where I would not enjoy the experience of driving the bus.......I just have been thinking about what I mentioned in my original post.....Things just resonated for me a bit tonight when I read the most recent post of a bus accident in Texas.....I went back again and read a few posts about a few unfortunate folks in their buses.............Safety is always a priority for myself, so I am ok with changing some components to accomplish that, but again I do not want to make it like a modern car in terms of handling or speed, but safety improvements that are proven to be money well spent, will be a priority for me......... |
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DannoT
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Good breaks a good engine and fast reflexes are about as good as you can get for avoiding the accident, I once met a guy in Denver who had a set up with steel square tube that was welded to the frame and went along the floor of the cab that he said was there to help in a accident but it looked bad in the bus and added a good sized lip next to the doors.
Last edited by DannoT on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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quartermilecamel
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Spitty1974 wrote: |
| quartermilecamel wrote: |
Go drive your bus in stop and go traffic, while thinking about the brakes, now go drive your honda, and you should notice that with the honda, you didnt have to think twice about stopping.
Get yourself a 3rd brake light, Especially if your bus has the round small tail lights! Get an L.E.D 3rd light and its even more eye catching!
Larger motor is good if you are having trouble getting on freeways. Larger motor is bad if your trying to mario andretti your bus, zippin in and out of traffic passing people, cause your late to your own wedding. Your future wife wont appreciate it if you scratch her bus and tear your tux. |
Where can I find more information about the power brakes? I know that the brakes on the bus are not like a modern car. That said, I'm all about making the brakes the best possible set up. I have no problem dropping the money on a very safe brake setup........My only reasoning for a bigger motor would be for increased speed when hoping on the freeway or expressway. I don''t want to race around in my bus, and I am not one to even dodge in and out of traffic with my modern 2011 Honda CRV, so no need for that..........I had seen a few post about the LED light bar set up on the back jailbars..........I am going to install that set-up for sure on my bus when the time comes...............Already married, got married in July 2011, no kids yet, but down the road..............My bus has the stock 1966 rear brake lights, they are of decent size, but still smaller than new cars. |
For one, I have a 1968/69 front beam on my bus. This beam allows me to use the 73 and up brakes because it........will bolt on to a split bus and.........it uses ball joints.....the same ball joints used on 73 and up buses. I use 1973 and later spindles/calipers. Depends on how much you are willing to spend. You can purchase a disc brake kit for 67 and earlier buses but it will cost 600 or more
Heres the run down on the parts I have. 1 1968 or 69 front beam. 1 pair of wide 5 adapters so I can still run my stock wide 5 bus rims. 1 pair of 73 and up spindles. 1 pair of 73 and up rotors. 1 pair of 73 and up calipers. 1 73 and up master cylinder.
Power brakes you say? Yup, the 1968 and 69 beam(upper and lower tubes) are the same distance apart as the 73 and up so all you have to do there is weld in the missing power brake booster bracket.....bolt up your vacuum booster and you have the primary part that gives you power brakes. I used an autostick intake manifold that had the 1/2 inch port for the vacuum signal that the power vacuum booster needs. Usage of the 73 and up master cylinder not only still gives you added dual curcuit design, but is shitloads cheaper than a 1967 m/c. Since this relocates the stock master cylinder location, you will have to come up with a new location for the m/c reservoir. Also when doing the power booster mod, you will have to fab up the booster to pedal rod, as its shorter or longer( I cant remember which). The power boosters did vary over the years. Some were 9 inches, and some were 11? This will interfere with your clutch cable if you go with the larger booster. I moved my clutch cable metal tube up some to clear the booster. Currently, Im using a vanagon booster, as they are more common and easier to get a hold of.
If youve got the cash for a bolt on disc brake kit, it is easier to install. No fabs or mods. The down side is the parts will be more expensive in the custom kit form to replace should they fail/wear out. Theres ways to do it, just have to do whats best for you. Forgot to add, My bus came with 14 inch rims. I had to switch to 15 inch rims to run the stock 73 and up brakes.
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Rustforlife
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Can you post up a link to the Texas crash please? |
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Thomas Pedigo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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I daily drive my '64 singlecab and find myself pondering the outcome,from time to time,of the possibility of a major incident.
It has no seatbelts and it will stay that way.
It has bone stock drum brakes.
I remind myself of how boring it was to drive a modern vehicle with all its comforts and safety devices.
Its really just a trade-off...enjoying the ride vs/driving in bubble-wrap.
I have convinced myself (because it takes my mind off of the potential fatality),that I would rather get thrown free of my potential "coffin cabin" then get trapped in it when it becomes an accordian in a front end collision.
Seatbelts or not...its gonna leave a mark.
Give yourself a lot of space and ALWAYS stay on top of your antiquated brake system.
Good luck man!
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Spitty1974
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Rustforlife wrote: |
| Can you post up a link to the Texas crash please? |
Here is the link. It appears the owner is ok, other than a slash in his forehead, but the car is toast. Out of all of the accident reports I read, this is the one with the least bit of human damage....The others I mentioned were much worse.
Sad to see such a nice bus, smashed like that.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=502141 |
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Clara
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cru62
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Pedigo wrote: |
.... I would rather get thrown free of my potential "coffin cabin" then get trapped in it when it becomes an accordian in a front end collision.....
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Ask Manny's wife how it feels to "get thrown free" in a collision.
And, I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but if you are at all concerned about how your ol' bus will fare in a front end collision, just look at Julies bus in the linked pictures. That is a STOCK height bus. Picture how your legs will look after the same wreck in a slammed bus. This isn't a condemnation of lowered buses. I like the way they look. I had one. But any one who is worried about a front-ender won't seriously consider lowering.
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joe cool
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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A rusted out bus with worn out bearings, cracked fuel lines, dried up grease, leaky wheel cylinders, etc is a deathtrap.
A properly maintained bus is pretty safe in my opinion. My stock brakes are good enough to lock up the front wheels... IF I keep them adjusted, bled, replace worn out parts as needed.
See where I am going with this? Everyday safety is to a large part a reflection of the owner/driver/mechanic. Freak accidents may be out of your control, but you (and only you) can prevent the common ones. |
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plane_ben
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I drive a '62 SC with no belts. My main idea for driving is....
- So what if I get there a minute later.
- Drive the speed limit, everyone else is going to be going faster.
- Anticipate stops and watch traffic in front and behind you religiously.
- I told my wife, bury me in it if i die in an accident. 
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Thomas Pedigo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| cru62 wrote: |
| Thomas Pedigo wrote: |
.... I would rather get thrown free of my potential "coffin cabin" then get trapped in it when it becomes an accordian in a front end collision.....
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Ask Manny's wife how it feels to "get thrown free" in a collision. |
Well,accidents are often tragic and given my options with no seatbelts and a chicken-shit door latch mechanism...(the door will most likely fly open)
Enjoy your drive.
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Last edited by Thomas Pedigo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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