Author |
Message |
Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24759 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Max Welton wrote: |
What is a "fuel pump vacuum gauge"?
Max |
Pretty sure he mean a fuel pressure/vacuum gauge. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Max Welton wrote: |
What is a "fuel pump vacuum gauge"?
Max |
This thing:
It lost the plastic cover years ago. Sometimes it reads 7psi and sometimes it reads 1psi so I figgered I needed a new one.
crvc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
alexvw Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1023 Location: Hales Corners, Wisconsin
|
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am having the same gas problem getting into the oil. If I add gaskets between the fuel pump and plastic spacer piece, will I have to worry about too low of fuel pressure? Will it not pump fast enough to keep the engine running? I have already replaced the fuel pump, rebuilt the carb,new volume control screw + float, adjusted valves, timed the engine, changed oil multiple times (also have electronic ignition, no need to set points) and still have the same thing happening.. I am stuck _________________ 1995 Mitsubishi 3000GT SL
1974 Volkswagen Superbeetle( Mitsubishi 4G63T Swap in Progress )
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575769&highlight= |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
while the engine is running, use a mirror to look down the carb throat. Sometimes the new float valves suck bad and leak even with the correct pressure.
If the valve is bad you will see anywhere from big drops to a steady stream of gas pouring out of the main discharge tube. With a partially pressurized carb once shut down raw gas continues to pour out of the tube, down the manifold, past the valves and past the rings. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the manual says the pump should put out 2.8psi. It also says use gaskets to get to that range. I paid around $10 for a pump from Harbor.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
How do you know it's running hot?
Do you have a oil temp gauge?
Do you have a head temp gauge?
Is the oil running hot?
Is the heads running hot?
You need to find out what it's doing first before you can try to solve the problem. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
craigman wrote: |
How do you know it's running hot?
Do you have a oil temp gauge?
Do you have a head temp gauge?
Is the oil running hot?
Is the heads running hot?
You need to find out what it's doing first before you can try to solve the problem. |
THe bug died on my first long drive on a mild day. I saw that no gas was coming from the pump. The flter looked dirty so I took it out. Then it started and I was able to drive home. It died again. I saw that no gas was coming out of the pump. I changed to second pump and it seemed to run but eventually the same thing happened. Then I bought a new pump, identical to the second one, and it happened again. I was using a 20-yr old fuel pump tester that would read 1psi one day then 7psi the next.
The root problem, I believe, is the engine bay producing too much heat which leads to vapor lock. A complicating factor was the various pumps have different outputs. Too few gaskets allowed gas to overload the top check valve. Too many gaskets caused the fuel bowl to eventually run dry.
It snowed all weekend so I don't need to worry about engine heat for now. Once we're back to normal spring weather I'm planning to put hinge offsets in to see whether that solves the problem. Also I'm taking Drscope's advice to have a water bottle handy to spray the pump should it happen again.
crvc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11056 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have you entertained the idea of debris in the tank, a blocked fuel tank screen, outlet, crimped flex hose under the tank or restricted tunnel tube?
Ive had VW's run 230 F under the decklid and never indicated issues with vapor locking. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have you checked the filter INSIDE the gas tank? There is a small plastic cone or brass screen filter that goes on top of the exit pipe in the tank itself. If there is too much rust or crap inside the tank filter it will suffer the same symptoms you describe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Glad to hear you "think" you know what's going on. If you "think" it's running hot, I would try and find out why instead of playing the guessing game. If you had a oil and head temp gauges this would tell you where to start looking for problems.
It sounds like one of your problems is a dirty fuel system. You mentioned your filter was dirty. Start by cleaning the tank, lines, ect.
Just for info, I ran my 1904 with dual 44 Webers without any decklid stand offs or tennis ball in 100* weather without any problems. (and yes I have both oil and head temp gauges) With a stockish motor you should have no need for decklid stand offs. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
derluftwagen wrote: |
Have you checked the filter INSIDE the gas tank? There is a small plastic cone or brass screen filter that goes on top of the exit pipe in the tank itself. If there is too much rust or crap inside the tank filter it will suffer the same symptoms you describe |
This is the message I sent in early March. I went through three fuel pumps before realizing it's something else. Vapor Lock seems to explain things. The gas tank is new. I had the block line bored last year and put in new pistons, cylinders and pins in January. Maybe the rings haven't adjusted yet but all 4 cylinders are 100psi, which is normal for the 6000tft altitude here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwyMViLRRSE
I've owned this 1967 bug for several years, having traded a 914 for it. Actually I got two bugs for it, the '67 and a '73. I traded bodies so the '67 has the '73 chassis. After rebuilding a type-3 engine I took it for it's first long drive, a three-hour tour of Flaming Gorge in Utah. It ran well but once I got back home I noticed a knock. The video is from that day in December.
Long story short, after fixing the knock and every other conceivable problem I went for another long drive down to the gorge on Sunday.
Maybe this post belongs in the thread on stuff you need to bring in case of emergencies. I made it to Manila, a 90 minute drive and stopped to check the engine. I saw a lot of oil on the left side and the dipstick was low. I paid $15 for a quart of 10W30 from the town's only garage. Then 10 minutes outside of Manila the engine died. Just died.
I took the air filter off. I looked down the carb while moving the throddle lever and saw no gas coming out the horseshoe-shaped tube. The pict3 is only a few months old. Plus the tank was full. I pulled the hose off that connects to the fuel pump and sucked on it and got a mouthful of gas. So no obstructions in the fuel line between the tank and the motor. Then I pulled the fuel line off the top of the carb and blew into it. No obstruction going into the carb.
The fuel filter looked pretty dirty. My problem was I had no tools and I was in the desert on a pretty empty road. I didn't see any cars passing during the hour I was fiddling with the engine.
I had my mini-leatherman; a two-inch long pocket knife with a small blade, pliers, awl, phillips screwdriver, flat screwdriver and a tiny file. The only other tool I had was a remote starter that I had forgotten was still clamped to the starter with the handle wrapped around the bumper mount.
I stuck the leatherman blade into the #2 sparkplug wire and cranked the engine. I got a nice shock. So there was power.
I had an extra long vacuum hose connecting the distributor to the carb. I cut off 6". I unscrewed the hose clamps, removed the filter and replaced it with the 6" hose. About that point the battery died.
Then a car stopped and asked if I needed help. "Well I need a jump." They didn't have jumper cables but were willing to drive back to town and get a pair. I sucked some more gas out of the fuel line and spit it into the carb. Then we jump-started the engine and I drove the 90 miles back home.
Three miles from my house the car died again. I called my wife, she brought a tow rope and we got the bug home. Back in the garage while cranking the engine I saw there was no gas coming out of the fuel pump outlet tube.
So it looks like the 50 yr old fuel pump has finally died. But it tells me I must never leave home without that mini-leatherman. Or jumper cables. And maybe a jack and lug wrench, other tools I hadn't brought on the drive. And a quart of oil.
And maybe a large syringe so I don't have to suck on gas.
crvc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11056 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not at all saying you're wrong, but dont overlook the very basics.
Ive had fuel line restrictions that would act very much like your problem. I had a fuel line leak that sucked air every once in a while that acted very similar, plus a partially blocked fuel filter with less than 100 miles after it was replaced.
Even on those that I was able to easily draw fuel from the rear.
Of course it also sounds like vapor lock. My only problem is you have remidied many of the most common issues that causes that. The air and engine would have to really be roasting under the hood to cause vapor lock now. the ole cool water trick may help diagnose that.
"T" eeing in the supply/vacuum side will tell you if a restriction is an issue. Just be sure to "T" at the rear first, and have the gauge where you can watch it while driving. If you see it drop deep in vacuum you have a problem.
If you dont all ready..... carry a fire extinguisher.
If you're testing properly you will have a long flex fuel hose all ready.
You can always use the long length of fuel flex hose and temporary route it from the tank to the pump. If the problem is elminated, its a restriction. Yes its crude, but it is good fuel supply diagnosis.
What ever you do be sure to keep the information in one post from now on. That way we arent throwing the same stuff back at you.. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Doesn't matter if your tank is new. You said your fuel filter was dirty. Your getting dirt from somewhere. Find out where it's coming from.
You have to start with the basics first.
Make sure you have CLEAN gas without any restrictions.
Make sure your tune up is correct. Correct heat range plugs, correct crank pulley with the correct timing marks. (yes there is different ones for different years)
Make sure you have all the correct cooling tin in place.
Correct fan for that shroud?
Is the heater boxes hooked up and functioning correctly?
You HAVE to verify these things first before you just start assuming or fixing things.
If your runnng hot in 50* weather there is something wrong. Find out why.
Basics man, basics.. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
|
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: Overheating in 50 degree weather? |
|
|
Make sure non of the fuel lines (metal or cloth) are lying on the cylinder tin or intake manifold or preheat. Any of these can cause you vapor lock problems as well. Make sure your good tank or fuel cap is vented as well. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Overheating in 50 degree weather? |
|
|
Teeroy wrote: |
Make sure non of the fuel lines (metal or cloth) are lying on the cylinder tin or intake manifold or preheat. Any of these can cause you vapor lock problems as well. Make sure your good tank or fuel cap is vented as well. |
All suggested previously, though spread across multiple threads.
Max _________________ 1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
I ordered a new metal fuel line but haven't installed it yet. Still waiting for the standoffs, new distributor, oil filter and low restriction muffler to come in before working on the bug. What's the best way of positioning the metal tube? Right now the old one is level with the sparkplugs and below the left-side manifold. Do I bend the new one into a large bow so that it arches over the tinware and manifold? I haven't seen any photos of engines where it was done that way.
crvc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: Overheating in 50 degree weather? |
|
|
Max , missed that until I reread the thread.
On a DP it would clip into the spark plug wire holder and then through a grommet in the firewall tin. It should go over the manifold as going between it would absorb heat, should be air space around the line from the pump all the way to the firewall tin. Once through the tin , make sure the hose isn't touching the heater box outlet or body to heater box hose. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
crvc wrote: |
I ordered a new metal fuel line but haven't installed it yet. Still waiting for the standoffs, new distributor, oil filter and low restriction muffler to come in before working on the bug. What's the best way of positioning the metal tube? Right now the old one is level with the sparkplugs and below the left-side manifold. Do I bend the new one into a large bow so that it arches over the tinware and manifold? I haven't seen any photos of engines where it was done that way.
crvc |
Hmmmm....
Since your just throwing parts at it instead of finding the problem, might as well order a new carb, intake manifold, oil cooler, fan shroud, generator, generator stand, dip stick, cylnder tin, valve covers, pushrod tubes, air cleaner, generator belt, and whatever else the catalog has to offer... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crvc Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2004 Posts: 1308
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
I bought the distributor over a year ago. It came with Petronix electronic ignition that died 6 months ago. I went back to the old dizzy while waiting for the warranteed replacement. I already had the fuel filter as well but ordered a new can. I've had the low restriction muffler several years. It's a cheapie I ordered from JC Whitney at least two bugs ago. The fuel line is at least 10 years old and has been bent and rebent resulting in several kinks. I'm hoping I don't need the standoffs but they were the cheapest thing I bought.
The carb and generator are new as well. All the rest seem to be holding up.
It's my daily driver and I live in a small town. When I've broken down on the road the whole town knows about it quick. This is mining and cattle country. Husbands drive pickups, wives might have new beetles but I got the only old bug in this town.
crvc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, since you don't seem to be listening, i'll try to make this real simple.
1) is ALL your cooling tin in place?
2) do you have the correct spark plugs?
3) what is your timing set at? If it's retarded it can run hot.
4) do you have a CLEAN supply of fuel?
5) do you have the correct fan for the shroud you have?
6) is anything blocking the intake of the fan? Reach in there and find out.
7) is the fan tight where it bolts the the back of the generator?
8- is the fan belt tight?
9) is your thermostat working correctly? If in doubt, wire it open and take it for a drive and see what happens.
These are thing you need to do FIRST before you buy or change one single part. If you don't you are just wasting time and money.
Now just don't assume you know all the answers here, go out and double check everything and report back to us. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|