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Just Need To Know What I'm Getting Into
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Deerbug
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Just Need To Know What I'm Getting Into Reply with quote

Hey everyone! I'm interested in making a bugaru for my first car and daily driver. I have a knowledge of cars, but I'm no mechanic (Although I will have one with me). I have my eye on a '74 Super Beetle with no engine, and a totaled Subie to use as a donor car. I haven't seen either in-person yet, but both look to be in solid shape. Is this all I'll need to get this project going?

Someone I know said that there's a possibility I'm going to need calibrated torque wrenches. True? He isn't always right, so I just wanted to make sure.

Thanks, and hello again!
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deerbug,

The project you have proposed would be a good learning experience; however at the end of the day you would be driving a 70’s era car with three times more horsepower than it came with from the factory, and although it would be reliable if you do the conversion right, you would not have; traction control, ABS, airbags and front and rear disk brakes… As someone who drove a bug as a daily driver for many years, what I remember mostly as far as using it as a daily driver compared to a 90’s or newer car is:

The seats were not comfortable after 20 min. driving-

Heating cooling and defrosting were all subpar even compared to 70 vehicles-

Engine noise on the freeway above average for 70s/loud compared to 90’s-

Windshield wipers just adequate in light to medium rain, awful in a downpour-

Pour access to rear seats, uncomfortable for rear passengers-

Limited trunk space unless you pulled down rear seat, or used the space behind it-

No cruise control-
Etc-

If this is your first car odds are you'll get into at least one accident is the next couple of years, if you're lucky it'll be minor, but if not you may lose all the hard work you did to build your car and/or accrue more/worse injuries as a result of not having ABS or airbags…

Not that I want to rain on your parade, but IMO you may want to buy a used Subaru as your daily driver, and build the bug for fun on weekends…

It that way you will have the best of both worlds, reliable daily driver and a whole set of new learning experiences that you can gain at your own pace without having to worry if you're going to be able to get to work/school due to an unreliable vehicle.


PS to do any serious work on an engine you need a good torque wrench.
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm
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Brian
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot.
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Lionhart on this one. Would be a lot better for an initial experience to do a fairly stock bug. Learn the basics and collect up some tools. You wont need a lot, but will still need the basic stuff - wrenches, sockets, etc. And get something like the Muir How to keep your VW alive book. Once you are able to get the car running and driving well, then if you want to tackle the swap, go for it.

On a personal note - I started messing with these cars abouy 8 years ago. Have done a LOT of work on 3 of our own VWs and in addition did a ground up design/build and doing a second one now. Also, have got a couple "barn finds" back on the road. Have no idea how many engines, tranny, beams, etc I have done.....AND I am on my second Subaru WRX. Love those cars. I would consider doing a Subie swap at this point in my mechanical journey, but wouldn't have even entertained the idea a couple years ago.

Here's the thing - its been done before and there are resources to help you do it, but you are talking about a lot of mechanical, electrical and some sheet metal work to do it. And you havent even gotten through the car itself, which will always need a complete going over with assorted repairs.

AND the cost isnt just buying 2 donors - YOu have to fix the car itself and then you will need various adapters, hardware, etc.

BUT the best thing is to read up on a build or two - here's a good one http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=77027

And just do a search in the late model forums for Subaru swap. LOTS of info.
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Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
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Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...
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Dr OnHolliday
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...if you have to ask, you can't pull it off....
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hitest
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would start by getting really chummy with the vanaru crowd. They above any VW enthusiast group have worked out the details of the motor swap. They know what electrical challenges you face, HVAC, how to keep it cool, what trans gearing works, etc. There is a very loyal fan base here in the vanagon world.

What I wouldn't want to see you do is get 3/4 in- then decide you hate VWs and Subarus as a result. Heaven forbid should you join a Fox-body mustang club or something.
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Deerbug
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm... I guess it might be a project for my second car? Laughing

So if I were to continue with this, it'd be best to find a running stock beetle instead of an engine swap?
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on who much more, a running beetle will cost, having a complete and relatively rust free bug is often more important than getting it with an engine, as often the engines are missing so many parts and have been so poorly repaired that most of it will need to be rebuilt anyway and you will have to hunt down all the missing parts to make it reliable…

If you can find a un-hacked/un-rusted running bug with a stockfish engine that would be best, however if you find one without the engine, and can lock in a deal to get a good core engine and buy them at the same time then you may get a better deal(check the samba how to tell if a core engine is likely to be good; endplay measurement etc)…
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm
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Deerbug
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'll keep looking just in case, but I'll get a Forester for my first car. Thanks for the advice!
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE: I'll get a Forester for my first car… Good Choice!

Now you just have to find a Suby forum that is as good as the samba to know what to look out for when buying one :0)
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm
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Deerbug
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just found a bug on Craigslist. Not much information about it aside from that it ran and drove well until the head studs backed out about a month ago. He says it'll be about $500 to fix. Thoughts? (And sorry to bother you guys again!)
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Brian
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like said above; Look for one that has nice interior, nice paint, no rust and no motor and transmission.

You will get it a lot cheaper than one that is running. And you'd want to change out the motor+tranny anyways, so why not do it first? I wish I would have done that.

Buying something that needs a patch isn't going to last you too long and will be a money pit.

in my opinion.
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Anthonyisawsome
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago I didn't really know squat about wrenching on cars. Before I started my conversion I asked all the usual questions and didn't know anything about what I was getting myself into. Ok some of the things you are going to need adapter plate and flywheel I got a Kennedy good quality and everyone uses them. Wiring harness you can use the donor harness and wire it yourself or send it out and have it done or it all new. The less hands on your are the more you will be reaching into your pockets. I did my own, wasn't very hard I asked a ton of questions and did hours of research. You will need coolant lines and a radiator. Fuel pump and fuel lines. If you don't want to cut a hole in your fire wall you can flip the intake or make a u bend and move the throttle body. Not sure if you can buy them anymore. Truss bar if you plan on driving the car. Throttle cable setup. Build an intake. Shortened oil pan, I am not sure if I am going to use one but I would like to. High torque starter or use the Subaru starter and cranky kit? Not sure if you can buy those anymore either, I am using the stock starter for now. You will possibly need a vehicle speed sensor (vss) and the wheel of death, don't really know much about it , I am not using one but I might need to. That's basically about it, seems like a lot at first but its not that bad. I learned a lot doing mine, still not done but it was a great experience for me and my first car.
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deerbug wrote:
Just found a bug on Craigslist. Not much information about it aside from that it ran and drove well until the head studs backed out about a month ago. He says it'll be about $500 to fix. Thoughts? (And sorry to bother you guys again!)


Re “He says it'll be about $500 to fix. Thoughts?” five hundred to fix the stud?

“it ran and drove well until X or Y or Z” That is one of the most used lines of BS you get from sellers(sometimes you get lucky and the truth from sellers)… But IMO add to that another $1,500 to fix all the other things that are shot/worn out in the engine…

It’s only a deal if you are paying for a good bug and consider the engine only has a core value if it is fairly complete(i.e. $200-$300) chances are that engine is missing a lot of parts it left the factory with, like 95% of all bugs out there ;0)
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm
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drscope
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't mean to offend anyone here, but lets face it the OP wants to put a Subaru engine into a 74 super and have this for his FIRST car.

He's asking if he needs calibrated torque wrenches.

Do ANY of you think this is really going to go anywhere?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't even tell us how much he's gonna pay for this Beetle that needs $500 worth of work 'maybe' or show us pictures of it.
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Deerbug
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are right.

I think it's time to take a break from CL until I have enough saved up to buy a good beetle with a good (stock) engine. I'm too eager! o.o

I didn't mention that it'll be until next July that I get my license, anyway. By that time I should have a lot more money.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once you feel like you found a good one, don't jump into it too eagerly. When looking at a car, find everything wrong with it. Not whats good.
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deerbug wrote:
You guys are right.

I think it's time to take a break from CL until I have enough saved up to buy a good beetle with a good (stock) engine. I'm too eager! o.o

I didn't mention that it'll be until next July that I get my license, anyway. By that time I should have a lot more money.


It’s wise to take things slowly when buying an air cooled VW(ACVW) the sad fact is that your chances of finding a “beetle with a good (stock) engine” are as likely as your odds of winning a multimillion dollar lottery in the next couple of years :0(

IMO, find the best beetle you can and do not pay extra for a good (stock) engine; even if it was just rebuilt and they have $1,500 worth of receipts for work just done by a “reputable shop”, odd are it was built by someone that does not have a clue on what it takes to build it correctly, even if they have been doing it for 30 years…

You are better off buying a rebuilt long block from BusDepot or someone that has been vetted by the samba, you could rebuild it yourself sending off the parts that need to be reconditioned to Rimco or another machine shop vetted by the samba…

http://www.busdepot.com/113100033r $1050 + $250 core

Since you have a bit of time before you need to buy; I would recommend reading Bob Hovers blog on ACVW engines, you will gain a lot of wisdom if you do; and have a much better idea of what you are getting into and why the odds are that any beetle you buy even with that just rebuilt engine will typically run for only a quarter of the miles it would have, compared to the one it left the factory with. ( you will have to mine his blog to find the pearls of wisdom, he put VW engines in airplanes, and flew them, he had good reason to take his work seriously, if his engines died in mid air, so could he ;0)


What you need to know about VW valve guides-

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/search?updated-...inate=true

Sunday, November 19, 2006
Wiggle-Wiggle
By Bob Hoover


Fella comes by the shop, got his heads in his hands. "Any good?" he asks.

I've known him twenty, thirty years. He's putting together a VW-powered trike with his grandson. Kid don't know squat about engines but his welding is to die for. Break a razor blade, he can weld it back up, good as new. Mebbe better. But as an engine builder he'd make a good... weldor, I guess.

So his grand-dad, the fella I know, has been bringing parts by. "Any good?" I take a look, tell him yes or no. When I say no, he scrounges up another part, brings it by. Process of elimination. He's rounded up just about all the parts he needs to build a good engine, picking up pieces here & there. So far, he's only out of pocket about fifty bucks for bearings and a gasket set.

I put the heads on the bench, turn on the big light, check them for cracks. Single-port heads, -373A's, prolly the most common - and the best - single-ports VW made. Takes bigger valves than the single-ports used on the 1300cc engine.

Studs are okay. One head has been out in the weather, steel parts are kinda rusty. Chase a couple of studs - the rust is just surface stuff, should clean up okay. Seats are okay. They need to be stoned but there's plenty of metal, no signs of loosening. Need to be heated up to check them right, though.

Dig around, find the bristle brush most folks think is for cleaning the pump in a percolator-type coffee pot. Nah! It's a Valve Guide Brush. Give the guides a shot of WD-40, scrub them good. Nylon brush doesn't hurt bronze. Put a piece of white paper on the bench, peer down each guide looking for scratches. Okay.

Dig around in the drawer, find a new valve, mike it just to be sure. New. Poke it down the valve guides, one by one. Wiggle-wiggle. Wiggle-wiggle some more.

One head, all four guides are shot. On the other, the exhausts are bad but the intakes are okay.

"How do you do that?" he asks.

I show him. Wiggle-wiggle.

"What'd you do?"

I show him again. Little wiggle on the good intakes, lotta wiggle on the bad exhausts. He kinda looks at me. "That's all it takes?" he asks.

"That and forty years," I grin, showing off.

I dig out a new valve guide, give it to him, hand him the new valve. "Poke it in there," I tell him. He pokes it.

"Now wiggle it." He wiggles it, shrugs, does it again.

Wiggle-wiggle.

"Now try that one," I point to one of the bad exhaust guides. He slides the valve in, wiggles it. His eyes open up a little, go kinda round.

"Big difference," he sez.

"Yeah, on that one. Try this one," pointing him toward the good intake guide.

"This one's... okay?"

"It's bit loose toward the chamber but you can use it."

He plays with the heads, going wiggle-wiggle.

"Not that way," I warn him when he tries wiggling the valve side-ways. "Rocker pushes the valve just one way. Use a bore-gauge, it'll say the guide is okay in the middle or side to side. But it's all ovaled out on the ends, doesn't hold the valve straight, can't soak up the heat the way it should. Shoulda been using swivel-feet."

"Why's that?"

"They spread the load on the end of the valve stem, reduce the side-loading. Guides don't wear out nearly so fast if you're running swivel feet." He asks how much they cost, where to get them. I've a hunch the boy's engine will have a set when it comes alive.

He wiggles some more. Up & down then side to side. Wiggle-wiggle. "I think... Yeah! I can feel the difference."

Anybody can if they wiggle enough. But it's new to him, potentially useful. I can see him storing it away in his mind like a newspaper headline 'Old Dog Learns New Trick!' "So... can I replace the guides?"

"If you got the tools." I show him a core drill and the drift and the driver and the wooden jigs for holding the heads and top it off by unlocking my machinist's tool box and showing him the reamer, all shiny and new-looking in its soft plastic tube. The reamer is more than twenty years old, still cuts true. He looks at all the stuff and his eyes go kinda flat. Too much information for him to handle all at once. So I do it a step at a time, remembering to include the weldor's gloves for handling the heads when they come out of the oven and the three different stones for dressing the seats and the tool that holds the stones and how long you gotta heat the heads and stuff like that.. He nods as I explain why it's bad to just blast the guides outta there cold and why the seats should have three angles and the importance of getting the stems the same length and about a thousand other things.

When I finish he heaves a big sigh, asks where he can get it done. I give him the name of a shop, "But you probably can't afford it." They do racing heads. The other automotive machine shops just do repair work, good enough for most folks but not the sort of thing a grandfather wants for his grandson's trike.

"I don't suppose you'd be interested... "

Thanksgiving is tomorrow. We got folks coming and I'm in pie-making mode. But he's probably got folks coming himself. And just as many chores as me. Friends are a lifetime sorta thing and VW heads aren't. But both need a bit of help now and then. So we settle on a price - he's got a chain-saw and I've got a wood-burning stove -- we shake on it and I see him off down the drive.

-R.S. Hoover
-25 November 1998

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Wiggle Test applies to all engines with poppet-type valves. The factory service manual for your particular engine usually provides a detailed procedure that allows you to determine the radial clearance of your valve guides by measuring the ‘wiggle’ with a dial indicator.

The exhaust valves are the VW’s weak link. Most flying VW’s will fail the wiggle test somewhere around 200 hours (about the same as the Continental A40). But some drop out of spec in as little as ten hours (!) while others soldier on for 400 hours or more. Why? Mostly because of cooling, or rather the lack of it in the case of short-lived valves. Loading, rpm and mixture play a roll but the gross symptom is accelerated valve guide wear and the most apparent cause is inadequate cooling.

Fortunately, replacing the valve guides in a VW head is a simple procedure. The old guide is cored out, the head is heated and the cored guide is driven out. The head is then re-heated to about 350 degrees Fahrenheit, the new guides are chilled to about -100 degrees Fahrenheit and pressed into the head, resulting in a shrink-fit. Chilling the parts is easily done by soaking them in a slurry of dry ice and sulphur dioxide, or in liquid propane.

Most VW shops don’t bother with such niceties. Instead, they use a pneumatic hammer to drive in the new guides at room temperature, resulting in a lot of split heads and loose guides. Which isn’t much of a problem in a dune buggy but can be bothersome when you’re half way to Catalina Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
_________________
Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm


Last edited by Lionhart94010 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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drscope
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deerbug wrote:


I didn't mention that it'll be until next July that I get my license, anyway. By that time I should have a lot more money.


There it is! I thought so.

Don’t get me wrong here, we were all starting out once and had hopes and dreams of building something really cool.

And it IS those dreams that develop into many of the toys and projects we play with today. Without dreams we have no goal and flounder. So I respect your dreams.

BUT! Lets get serious a minute. As someone who isn’t old enough to have a driver’s license yet, there are also a lot of other things that you probably don’t have. A few of those things are the funds to feed a project like this, the tools necessary to make the modifications, the knowledge of how to operate those tools, the skills necessary to do it, a place of your own to work on it over a 2, 3, 4, 5 year span or longer.

This type of project requires good funding, along with a lot of skilled modifications and capabilities. Most folks in your situation don’t have any of those things. The majority of them don't even know the basics of how a 4 cycle Otto engine works.

Many think they can pull it off simply because they don’t know any better and they jump in. The result is they piss off their parents, they irritate off the neighbors, and all to often another decent car ends up being taken out of circulation and ends up at the scrape yard.

Don’t stop dreaming, but bring your plans down to earth closer to your level of achievement. Before you jump into a project like this, it really helps if you develop your skills. A good way to do that is to start with something SIMPLE and learn about it.

The VW was certainly simple, but now that the cars are 40 or 50 years old, most of the ones available are no longer cheap, and the work they need is no longer simple. But there is hope.

In the next few years your life is going to go through some major changes. And unfortunately part of those changes is going to be taking on some of the responsibilities of being an adult. A lot of times those responsibilities can push this type of dream out of your possibilities.

My suggestion is to step back. Learn to walk before you try to run. Start with simple basic stuff and work up from there. Many of us have been at this 5, 10, 20, 40, 60 years and we’re still learning and still collecting tools.

Save your nickels and dimes and when the time is right find the nicest car you can afford. Then get it going and learn about how and why it works. Then you’ll be better suited to begin trying to do modifications.

In the mean time, get yourself a copy of this book and read it. You’ll love it and you’ll learn a lot about what made the VW the most popular car of it’s day.
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