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My stupid questions thread..for important but dumb questions
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busmania
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: My stupid questions thread..for important but dumb questions Reply with quote

Rather than start a new thread every time I have a question, I thought I would post them here. Some are just dumb questions but I dont want to be wrong. Please help.

1. What are the torque specs for the rocker studs in the head? I bought chromoly studs and they are going into NEW 042 heads.

2. What is the torque spec for the exhaust studs?

3. Torque specs for 10mm cylinder studs? 23 pounds?

4. (this is where it gets dumb, but I would rather ask than make a dumb mistake) I am putting in an engle W100. It has a black coating on the cam lobes. I dont need to remove this do I?

5. Reading the Wilson book, it says to torque rods 15-20-24. Correct? I seem to be having nightmares about this.

6. I read teh last 50 pages of the oil thread yesterday and am STILL confused. everyone has their own opinion....here is what I was thinking....Brad Penn Break in oil for initial start up and 2 heat/cool down cycles. Change oil to regular synthetic and add some additives (red line) with some zinc (measured carefully as too much zinc is as bad as too little).

Yes, I do have the bentley and tom wilson book but some of tthese specs are not listed.

Thanks as always for the help!
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borninabus
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

all of your torque questions will be answered here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/1969withoutguesswork.php

exhaust studs ~ 25ft/lbs or so...just tight is fine.

cam & oil are good.
why not just stick w/ the BP semi syth after you change?
then you don't have to worry about additives Wink
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yamaducci
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: My stupid questions thread..for important but dumb quest Reply with quote

busmania wrote:
Rather than start a new thread every time I have a question, I thought I would post them here. Some are just dumb questions but I dont want to be wrong. Please help.

1. What are the torque specs for the rocker studs in the head? I bought chromoly studs and they are going into NEW 042 heads.

It's not as important as the torque you put on the rocker nuts so seat the studs and then maybe a 1/4 turn or about 10 -12 lb's with thread locker.

2. What is the torque spec for the exhaust studs?

See above but no thread locker.
3. Torque specs for 10mm cylinder studs? 23 pounds?

Same as number 1 but the 23 Lb's you are referring to is for the nuts that go on them that hold the heads on. Also do them in stages using the criss-cross pattern outlined in the book.

4. (this is where it gets dumb, but I would rather ask than make a dumb mistake) I am putting in an engle W100. It has a black coating on the cam lobes. I dont need to remove this do I?

No! do not touch the lobes with anything but I would learn how to debur the edge of the lobes especially on an Engle Cam and even more especially when running dual springs and don't forget your cam lube on the lobes.

5. Reading the Wilson book, it says to torque rods 15-20-24. Correct? I seem to be having nightmares about this.

Don't be Sceeerd, tighten the top bolt to 15 then the bottom bolt then go back tot the top and tighten to 20 then bottom 20 and repeat for final torque at 24. Make sure the threads are clean and use red lock tight and no nead to stake the nut ( if we are talking stock rods). If H-beams then clean bolt and threads and apply ARP assembly lube and use a bolt stretch gauge.

6. I read the last 50 pages of the oil thread yesterday and am STILL confused. everyone has their own opinion....here is what I was thinking....Brad Penn Break in oil for initial start up and 2 heat/cool down cycles. Change oil to regular synthetic and add some additives (red line) with some zinc (measured carefully as too much zinc is as bad as too little).
You are on the right track. The main take aways are: Use break in opil rated for flat tappet cams containing high zink (I.E zddp). Dump it after the break in do not keep running it, let cool over night. set valves, change oil and off you go to break in rings. Come back and change oil after 100 miles of break in and enjoy your new engine.Run the Brad Penn, "PennGrade 1" every time

Yes, I do have the bentley and tom wilson book but some of tthese specs are not listed.

Thanks as always for the help!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much to both of you. Asking sure beats wondering about it.

Quote:
4. (this is where it gets dumb, but I would rather ask than make a dumb mistake) I am putting in an engle W100. It has a black coating on the cam lobes. I dont need to remove this do I?

No! do not touch the lobes with anything but I would learn how to debur the edge of the lobes especially on an Engle Cam and even more especially when running dual springs and don't forget your cam lube on the lobes.


Where would one find this info...on deburing?


7. The cam bearing saddles were very tarnished since they were not machined like the main bearing areas. I polished these with a fine emery cloth. Is that OK?

8. Do I REALLY need to tap the oil galleys in a type 1? Machine shop says no, everyone else seems to say yes. Ive done this before and have the tooling so not worried about the actual procedure. Im thinking I will do it so I can get the inside of the case really clean but I dont want to risk oil leaks. Red lock tight or blue on new threaded plugs?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amsoil is now making synthetic for flat tappet motors, no need for addatives, the ZDDP is alrready in there. It's also formulated for street drivinng with a detergent package and all the stuff racing oils don't have to be able to go a few thousand miles of street driving. Racing oils are formulated a lot differently than regular oils.

brad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

busmania wrote:
Thank you very much to both of you. Asking sure beats wondering about it.

Quote:
4. (this is where it gets dumb, but I would rather ask than make a dumb mistake) I am putting in an engle W100. It has a black coating on the cam lobes. I dont need to remove this do I?

No! do not touch the lobes with anything but I would learn how to debur the edge of the lobes especially on an Engle Cam and even more especially when running dual springs and don't forget your cam lube on the lobes.


Where would one find this info...on deburing?


7. The cam bearing saddles were very tarnished since they were not machined like the main bearing areas. I polished these with a fine emery cloth. Is that OK?

8. Do I REALLY need to tap the oil galleys in a type 1? Machine shop says no, everyone else seems to say yes. Ive done this before and have the tooling so not worried about the actual procedure. Im thinking I will do it so I can get the inside of the case really clean but I dont want to risk oil leaks. Red lock tight or blue on new threaded plugs?


You might try Googling a little to find more pictures on deburring but here is an Engle K10 cam that did not get deburred and you can see the chip-out it later suffered.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's not a must-do step but should-do for high performance engines and it just makes good building sense. I cover the lobes in two layers of duct tape and use a carbide bur then finish it with little sanding drums.
I think Mark tucker uses a belt sander and some of those smaller belt sanders probably do a great job but take a while. Just be careful not to scratch the lobe surface or bearing surface.
I would rather see you use a grey Scotch bright pad on the saddles. Either way you need to clean the case again. In my shop the first thing to do is pull plugs and tap. It's the right thing to do. Depending on the case this could be avoided if you are thorough about cleaning with a pressure washer. Red is overkill. Blue is OK but I just use PTFE so the crunchy loctite does not work it's way into the bearings.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 30x1" belt sanders are fast& a lot easyer2-3 min & you done..keep the carbide burr away from it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you deburr the sharp edges and not touch where the cam rides? Just trying to picture it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deburr the edges of the lobes so they dont eat at the lifters,it dont take much ,just knock off the sharp edges all the way around the lobes in the direction of rotation.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that makes sense now
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yamaducci wrote:
You might try Googling a little to find more pictures on deburring but here is an Engle K10 cam that did not get deburred and you can see the chip-out it later suffered.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's not a must-do step but should-do for high performance engines and it just makes good building sense. I cover the lobes in two layers of duct tape and use a carbide bur then finish it with little sanding drums.
I think Mark tucker uses a belt sander and some of those smaller belt sanders probably do a great job but take a while. Just be careful not to scratch the lobe surface or bearing surface.
I would rather see you use a grey Scotch bright pad on the saddles. Either way you need to clean the case again. In my shop the first thing to do is pull plugs and tap. It's the right thing to do. Depending on the case this could be avoided if you are thorough about cleaning with a pressure washer. Red is overkill. Blue is OK but I just use PTFE so the crunchy loctite does not work it's way into the bearings.


Case is clean, clean, clean. literally, its been cleaned 3 times. Twice by the machine shop and once by me. I will be cleaning again right before final assembly.

Note taken on the scotch bride on the saddles.

Ill be doing the plugs...I know it is the right thing to do in the end.

On the deburring...I can definately see casting marks up/down the whole cam. the lobes and journals obviously have been machined but there definately are some spots that concern me. Can I just do this deburring by hand with 1500 grit?

My cam
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a thread on plugging on here and I caution you to make a decision on the oil restrictor plug. Either you can leave it in or take it out and if you take it out you need to restrict the oil flow. I drilled a restrictor hole in a plug then drilled and tapped the plug in the saddle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only be concerned with this edge on both side of the lobe. It needs to be de burred or otherwise rounded over slightly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yamaducci wrote:
Only be concerned with this edge on both side of the lobe. It needs to be de burred or otherwise rounded over slightly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thats what I figured but can I do it with 1500 grit, by hand? Im assuming we are only talking about just enough to get the "sharpness" off the edge?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh sorry.. 1500 probably wont do anything for the hardened edge.
This 1" belt sander would probably do a nice job with about 80-120 grit paper.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-x-30-inch-belt-sander-2485.html

I use ferrous burs (Non ferrous shown)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and porting rolls

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seen burrs jump & dance toomany times even in the best of hands.if you have to use a dirgrinder use a fine stone,and that can also get away.the belt sanders are about $30 at the harrbenger of freight & biglots probaly sears&lowesdepot home stors also.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great help today. I will be getting the belt sander from HF. Seems like a much better/more accurate way of doing this job than a grinder or small bit in a dremel. I will be able to control where I am removing material. I dont want any questionable areas when I am done with this build.

Thanks everyone. Class is over for me for today I guess. I cant think of any other questions....yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More recommendations from what I've learned recently:

-If you have the original cam/gear set from that motor and its in good shape, I recommend removing the gear and having it machined for use on the new cam. A wrongly pithed gear will put too much pressure on the cam thrust bearing and could cause it to fail rather quickly (mine was about to go).

- Also consider polishing the thrust surface on the cam as recommended by the builders on here. The W110 I received here was very rough and would have eaten up the bearing in short order.

My de-burred, thrust polished, and modified VW gear /cam set.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Torque
exhaust "nuts": 15-18
rockers: 18-20
rods: 25

10mm heae studs: 23

Engine fasteners should be lubed with oil, unless you are using a sealant on them
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

new question time

9. Im pretty sure my distributor drive gear is in correct but can someone verify? When dots on crank and cam are lined up correctly and the rotor points to #1 mark on distributor, the dist. timing gear slot is perpendicular to the case half line. Is this correct? Wilson says the rotor should point at 5 o clock. Mine points about 330ish.

10. Is 3 shims for the distributor drive gear too much? play is about .045 with 3 on there.

Sometimes too much info is just as bad as not enough info....ugh. Thanks again.
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