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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| CrRusty wrote: |
| If my memory is correct, the 914 flywheel is different from a bay window flywheel. They visually look similar but there dimensional differences. Maybe someone else can elaborate |
Totally different and the pilot bearing is in the flywheel not the cranked.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to Shoptalkforums.com.
Type 4: Secrets Revealed
Link:http://www.tunacan.net/t4 |
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cvav8or
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 45
Location: Whidbey Island, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: Clutch Options |
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Hi guys,
So the engine is being rebuilt at this time and I'm looking for a clutch. Currently the clutch is a Sachs 210mm but it's toast and needs to be replaced.
I see the type4store and Jake Raby recommends and sells a 200mm conversion kit for the type 4 engine to type 1 tranny.
So.... Should I stick with the 210mm and spend $199 on a new disc and pressure plate or spend the $370 for the whole kit and caboodle (Kennedy stage 1 pressure plate and disk and a new flywheel in 200mm?
Thanks in advance
cvav8or |
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912OutlawR
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2014
Posts: 8
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| VW and Porsche are in my blood, but I'm a newbie to this whole type 4 engine. I recently acquired a 69' 912. It's in great condition with minimal rust. Only issue is that the previous owner replaced the engine with a 1600 dual port. It works great but isn't very fun to drive. I've seen a bit on here about upgrading to a type 4 engine. There's a ton of info on here, but I'm having trouble finding where to start, i.e. what to look for in a type 4 engine, as well as a good place to buy one? I'm planning on getting a Jake Raby kit, particularly the 2270. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| 912OutlawR wrote: |
| VW and Porsche are in my blood, but I'm a newbie to this whole type 4 engine. I recently acquired a 69' 912. It's in great condition with minimal rust. Only issue is that the previous owner replaced the engine with a 1600 dual port. It works great but isn't very fun to drive. I've seen a bit on here about upgrading to a type 4 engine. There's a ton of info on here, but I'm having trouble finding where to start, i.e. what to look for in a type 4 engine, as well as a good place to buy one? I'm planning on getting a Jake Raby kit, particularly the 2270. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
Another site filled with type 4 engine info is at 914World.com as lots of guys have built up their engines to 2056 (120hp) or 2270 (150-200Hp). A lot depends on how deep your pockets are.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Henrik_K
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2013
Posts: 181
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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My type4 engine is an AP 1800. I've bought a pair of refurssbished heads with a 39 mm intake valves. I'm running a dual carb setup. According to different sources - this calls the the larger 41 mm intake valves. Is that right? Will I be able to use the 39 mm. intake at all?
Rgds, Henrik |
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Jbarnestennis
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2014
Posts: 236
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| new to the scene and have two westys. is there anyway to buy a fully built 914 engine to put directly into my 76 westy or do I have to buy the block then buy accessories? if so where can I buy one |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jbarnestennis wrote: |
| new to the scene and have two westys. is there anyway to buy a fully built 914 engine to put directly into my 76 westy or do I have to buy the block then buy accessories? if so where can I buy one |
This company sells engines.
http://type4store.com/ |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Jbarnestennis wrote: |
| new to the scene and have two westys. is there anyway to buy a fully built 914 engine to put directly into my 76 westy or do I have to buy the block then buy accessories? if so where can I buy one |
These places can rebuild your Type 4 VW engine:
Boston Bob
Headflow Masters
NW Connecting Rod
You can get a rebuilt exchange through Bus Depot |
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1967250s
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Options |
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| cvav8or wrote: |
Hi guys,
So the engine is being rebuilt at this time and I'm looking for a clutch. Currently the clutch is a Sachs 210mm but it's toast and needs to be replaced.
I see the type4store and Jake Raby recommends and sells a 200mm conversion kit for the type 4 engine to type 1 tranny.
So.... Should I stick with the 210mm and spend $199 on a new disc and pressure plate or spend the $370 for the whole kit and caboodle (Kennedy stage 1 pressure plate and disk and a new flywheel in 200mm?
Thanks in advance
cvav8or |
If your pressure plate and flywheel are in good shape, you can just get a 215mm disc. It will fit with a liitle persuasion. and is a lot cheaper than 210. Of course there is always the matter of the trans, flywheel and starter not destroying each other. I'm not sure the geometry of the clutch release arm and flywheel is a good one though, so more research is probably necessary.
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'72 Elm Green Deluxe |
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ChipWrecked
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2012
Posts: 89
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:06 pm Post subject: Determining cam type on a PO Type IV engine exchange... |
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My new to me 72' Westy came with a 1700 "EA" engine from a 914 or more likely a 73' 411. It was non-running for a decade or so and history is sketchy. I pulled the engine last week, and was planning a tear down. During dis-assembly, I noticed that at one point this was a fuel injected block - and now with the stock PDSIT carbs. I've pulled the heads, and to my surprise, they are immaculate - like under 1000 miles immaculate J/Q heads. The 90mm P&C internals are also looking fresh. So I am reconsidering the teardown, and may now just roll with the 1.7 as is... but I'm concerned that the cam may be for a non-bus application.
Is there a way of determining if the cam is appropriate for the bus without opening the case? I'll be fishing out the lifters tomorrow to try and visualize the cam - if it's worn then this is a moot question - but I'm starting to feel like this long block was rebuilt, used briefly, then parked.
I appreciate the help. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there a way of determining if the cam is appropriate for the bus without opening the case? I'll be fishing out the lifters tomorrow... |
Yes - there is a way. DO NOT get the lifters confused. They MUST go back in the exact same bores they came out of. Also - since it could have bit me I warn all new T4 engine owners - the oil drain nut can only be torqued to 7 - 9 ft lbs or it will break the case internally. This is overlooked by many mechanics and T4 engine owners who are new to the game. Repeat it 25 times or it may bite you like it has bitten many before you.
You need to print out a degree wheel on a piece of paper and get some tape so you can tape it to the flywheel with the clutch off. Make a pointer using an old coat hanger and attach it to something so that it is dead steady when you rotate the pistons. Pull all 4 plugs, or if the heads are off leave them off which is easier. Bolt a piece of steel strap or aluminum block across each cylinder if the heads are off. On T4 engines the plugs are at a weird angle so bear with me here. If you can put a dial indicator on the top of #1 piston at the wrist pin, do so. Pick a number like .020" or ,050". Measure the drop at one of those numbers after you pass thru top dead center. Rotate the other way and figure the drop at the same. You make two fine marks on the flywheel with a pencil or thin magic marker at the part line on each direction. TDC will be 1/2 way between. Once you have TDC put the engine on TDC and tape on your degree wheel and align TDC with the TDC of your engine. Put your dial indicator on an intake lifter or lobe for #1. Rotate it until you have say .001 lift and write it down, continue to .050" lift and write the number down. Continue rotating the engine until the valve is fully open - write the number down - usually you have to find that center again by drop on both sides of the center of the lobe. Continue until the valve is .050" from closing and write it down. Continue to .001" and write it down. Now you have the opening and closing degrees as well as the center of the lobe. You also have the opening and closing at .050". Do the same for the exhaust lobe of #1. With those numbers you can go to a cam grinder's page, like web cam and compare the duration and lobe center to known grinds. You may not find the exact grind but you will find something close. That will tell you what range the cam was made to run at. Some manufacturers rate their duration at 0.01" lift and others at .050" lift so you can compare apples with apples.
IF the plugs are in then you will have to devise some way to find TDC. Last time I did one with the plugs in, I used a piece of thick copper wire stuck thru the hole to bind the piston as it came up, then I bound it the other direction and measured 1/2 way between and that was TDC. I have also devised a piece of coat hanger with a bend and a loop so it rocks as the piston goes up and down, and then I measure the amount of rock from each side of TDC as the piston comes up and down. TDC is 1/2 way. You need exact TDC.
This is a link to a thread I did on finding TDC. And some shots of the plug angles so you can see what you are up against.
TDC - you can see how the cylinders are bolted down. DO NOT let the cylinders slide off the piston rings. They are seated.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409853&highlight=tdc
degree wheel https://www.google.com/search?q=degree+wheel&b...CAcQ_AUoAg
I might add - if that seems too complex - try this:
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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ChipWrecked
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2012
Posts: 89
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="SGKent"]
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| Now you have the opening and closing degrees as well as the center of the lobe. You also have the opening and closing at .050". Do the same for the exhaust lobe of #1. With those numbers you can go to a cam grinder's page |
Thank you sir, that seems very doable since my heads are off.
Someone - not me - should do a video showing this technique! |
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ChipWrecked
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2012
Posts: 89
Location: SE PA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="SGKent"]
| Quote: |
| Now you have the opening and closing degrees as well as the center of the lobe. You also have the opening and closing at .050". Do the same for the exhaust lobe of #1. With those numbers you can go to a cam grinder's page |
Thank you sir, that seems very doable since my heads are off.
Someone - not me - should do a video showing this technique! |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 860
Location: essex
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:58 am Post subject: |
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VW ran 1800 FI engines for the bus 74/75 shortly before introducing the 2.0l in 76.
Does anyone know how much was changed in the engine to accommodate the larger displacement. It seems strange why they ran the 1800 at all it was such a short run and must have cost a fortune to introduce then upgrade.
Obviously barrels and pistons but were the heads upgraded, cam etc. Was the block modified in any way? I'm interested to know just how different (or even unique) the 1800 FI really are.
Many thanks,
PG
_________________
1975 1.8l FI Auto Westy - Subaru converted
1971 356 kit 1600 TP - semi/stickshift
1971 1302 LS - semi/stickshift
Trim ring info here -> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559668
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451210
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479721 |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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VW engineers thought the limit of the type4 was 1800 due to the cam and crank being so close. In late 1972 Porsche decided to stop building the 914/6 and needed to upgrade the 1.7/1.8L engine for the 914. They put Ernst Furmann to head the project and they came up with the offset ground crank to increase the stroke to 71mm along with the 94mm pistons and the 3 bolt intake heads to get to the magic HP number of 100hp for the 1973 2.0L 914. That was their new engine for the 73 914 sports car. Ever notice the 71mm crank and rods have a 039 number? That's the 914 engine number as VW produced and even built on their engine line all the 914 engines on a special assembly day in the VW factory.
VW then decided to use this set up in the bus due to the increased torque but they did use a different head than the special 914 one. Smaller valves, smaller combustion chamber and dished pistons for a lower CR to control the heats issues in the heavy bus.
The type4 cases changed over the years but I think it was more for production savings than anything as the early cases are stronger.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 860
Location: essex
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GTV
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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It kinda annoys me that they didn't give the stroke an extra 1mm, 94x72 would have made for 1999cc...
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EMPI Power Rules! |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| pgtips wrote: |
Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised.
I had plans to upgrade my engine from 1.8 to 2.0 to make it's life a bit easier but not so sure now, are the cases interchangeable despite the changes to cam i.e could i purchase the 2.0 components and use my existing case? |
What is different is the crank 71mm stroke(smaller main due to offset grinding), rods and the pistons (pin height). Gather those three parts along with 1800 heads and you are at a 2.0L. Now the pistons must match the 1800 heads so the CR is right as the 1800 heads have a 55cc chamber IIRC while the 2.0l heads are smaller. VW used dished pistons to control the CR so you must match them up. I am using 1800 AMC heads with 914 dished pistons to get a 7.8 to 1 CR
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| pgtips wrote: |
Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised.
I had plans to upgrade my engine from 1.8 to 2.0 to make it's life a bit easier but not so sure now, are the cases interchangeable despite the changes to cam i.e could i purchase the 2.0 components and use my existing case? |
The 1.8L is a nice long lived engine that is happy at higher speeds, a lot of people including myself are quite happy with it. A 2.0L will have significantly more torque but will likely not last as long if you like to cruise at 75 MPH all day.
As has been already said all you really need to build a 2.0 starting with a 1.8L engine is the crank, rods, and pistons. |
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