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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Wildthings"]
| pgtips wrote: |
Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised.
but will likely not last as long if you like to cruise at 75 MPH all day.
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That's bullshit! If any VW type 4 is built correctly and is balance they will last the same- 1.7,1.8 or 2.0L. All should have new AMC correctly rebuilt heads if you are going to rebuild any engine.
I drive mine regularly at 75mph....
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bleyseng"]
| Wildthings wrote: |
| pgtips wrote: |
Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised.
but will likely not last as long if you like to cruise at 75 MPH all day.
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That's bullshit! If any VW type 4 is built correctly and is balance they will last the same- 1.7,1.8 or 2.0L. All should have new AMC correctly rebuilt heads if you are going to rebuild any engine.
I drive mine regularly at 75mph.... |
If 2.0L never had a problem with overheating when running highway speeds why are you recommending modified aftermarket heads and from your signature you are also running a non stock cam with possibly a non stock exhaust? |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| pgtips wrote: |
| Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised. |
but will likely not last as long if you like to cruise at 75 MPH all day.
|
That's bullshit! If any VW type 4 is built correctly and is balance they will last the same- 1.7,1.8 or 2.0L. All should have new AMC correctly rebuilt heads if you are going to rebuild any engine.
I drive mine regularly at 75mph.... |
I'm going to call you on that one. If you take two identical engines, with one having a longer stroke, and spin them around a billion times at 4,600 RPM, the engine with the longer stroke is going to fail first. When the pistons have to travel that much further, they're going to put that much more strain on the bearings, case, crank, and rods. Even if JR built your CS with his legendary balancing, you're still saying basic physics don't apply. Yes they do.
Now, if your 2.0 is geared lower than the 1.8, all bets are off because you're no longer comparing apples to apples. VW geared their 2.0 buses lower for this reason. So to travel 75 all day both the 1.8 and the 2.0 are happy, because they're in the sweet spots of their power bands.
Robbie
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Stuartzickefoose
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Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:30 am Post subject: |
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2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 860
Location: essex
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Wireless
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I don't have enough time at present to read all 12 pages, but as I currently have a 412LS Variant with a CB Code 1700 fitted, complete with oil bath filter, and also have a 1600 1976 Bay Window, plus a spare AN Code 1800 Engine, I plan to eventually fit the 1700 in the Bay.
I'm sure there's going to be several issues and it won't be a straight swap from the 412 to the Bay, first I'm thinking is the changes I might have to make to enable the engine to mate with the existing Bay gearbox, plus changes in engine supports, plus the tin ware appears to suit a 412, not a Bay.
I will read the thread eventually, but if anyone has any rapid insights in how to achieve this engine swap I'd be happy to receive them, thanks.
Wayne Faulkner
Shrewsbury, England, UK |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51149
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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JDub113
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009
Posts: 758
Location: Reno
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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What is this lever back here? Nothing is hooked to it.
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84 Wolfsburg Edition Westy |
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2205
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: The Type 4 Engine thread |
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that lever allows exhaust gas to mix, it usually gets opened/closed by
link to the throttle arm.
It (the exhaust feed) is probably plugged. Hopefully. |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Its an EGR valve but have no idea what actuated it |
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thewalrus
Big Jack
Joined: March 27, 2006
Posts: 3014
Location: Belchertown, MA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:59 am Post subject: |
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From another thread but some real good info:
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| LCOX wrote: |
| What's the difference between VW air cooled type 2 and type 4 engines? Can they both be used in VW buses and Porsche 914 as well? |
In the mid/late 60's the head of VW, Heinrich Nordhoff, began work on a larger upscale passenger car (411) and a sporty mid engine vehicle in partnership with Porsche which was to become the 914. Nordhoff lived to see the introduction of the 411 in 1968, but sadly the 914 was not introduced until after his passing. The original plan was for Porsche to do a lot of the cassis design while VW was to use ins manufacturing expertise to develop a way to produce the car economically. Fortunately the 914 was completed, but because the new management at VW wouldn't cooperate as Nordhoff intended, the introduction of the 914 was delayed and it cost a good deal more than anticipated. A new engine was developed for these vehicles dubbed the Type 4 for its first use in the 411. After it's 1st year in production the 1.7 was making an honest 80HP.
The engine was a lot beefier in construction than the T1 was, which was useful for loading up at higher rated powers in the tall gears of the 411 and 914. This same structural soundness made it an appealing alternative for use in the bus. Come 1972, a modified (some call it detuned) version of the 1.7 with lower compression and a few other minor changes was prepared and introduced for use in the bus. This version of the engine continued in production until mid '83 in the Vanagon with some minor modifications.
It is interesting to note that the increase in displacement always appeared first in the sporty versions of the engine, and the more mild bus version followed suit at a later date. While they were producing the '72 1.7 for the bus, the 2.0 was being developed for the 914, but it took three years after its introduction for the 2.0 to find its way into bus applications. The 914 made 95 hp, but the bus version topped out at 67hp. Same is true of the 1.8 which showed up in '73 412s and 914s topping out at 85hp while the bus 1.8 followed a year later in '74 with (again) a modest 67hp.
So, yes, the engines will interchange mechanicaly from vehicle to vehicle without issue. That said, the two different styles of engines won't play well with each other. Putting a high compression 411/412 or 914 engine in a bus sounds like a hot running dog of a vehicle. Putting a bus engine into a 411/412 or 914 will pull great down low but run out of gas up top and will be sluggish in comparison due to the lack of power. Cams were also different for different applications. The 1.8 bus engines made a gobs of torque at a little over 2k while the european 412 with dual Solex 40 PDSIT carbs would wiz right up to 5 grand easy. They are totally different animals, and should be treated as such. |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| You ran over some #Vanlife'ers hopes and dreams? |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| pgtips wrote: |
| Interesting information, a lot more inside than I ever realised. |
but will likely not last as long if you like to cruise at 75 MPH all day.
|
That's bullshit! If any VW type 4 is built correctly and is balance they will last the same- 1.7,1.8 or 2.0L. All should have new AMC correctly rebuilt heads if you are going to rebuild any engine.
I drive mine regularly at 75mph.... |
I'm going to call you on that one. If you take two identical engines, with one having a longer stroke, and spin them around a billion times at 4,600 RPM, the engine with the longer stroke is going to fail first. When the pistons have to travel that much further, they're going to put that much more strain on the bearings, case, crank, and rods. Even if JR built your CS with his legendary balancing, you're still saying basic physics don't apply. Yes they do.
Now, if your 2.0 is geared lower than the 1.8, all bets are off because you're no longer comparing apples to apples. VW geared their 2.0 buses lower for this reason. So to travel 75 all day both the 1.8 and the 2.0 are happy, because they're in the sweet spots of their power bands.
Robbie |
That's on paper analyzing.
In the real world over the years a 914/412 engine lasted about 150,000-200,000 miles before it needed rebuilding. In a heavy bus, a type 4 engine lasted about 100,000-150,000.
The miles slowly kills the heads, valve guides wear out, cracks develop in the heads, seats are pounded into the heads and recess while the bearings slowly get pounded/worn out. In a heavier bus the extra weight does it faster.
This is saying all engine were serviced regularly with quality oil and filters. That is my experience having been around air cooled since 1968. I have also seen a lot of buses die at 50-75,000 miles due to lack of servicing mostly lack of oil changes and valve adjustments resulting in the dreaded dropped valve seats.
Yes, VW did take into account gear ratios etc to keep the engine spinning at it's sweet spot of 4200 rpms at the normal causing speed of 70mph. Also we in the US we had to drive a 55 mph for many years but once on the open highway who did....not me with a radar detector.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| I'm going to call you on that one. If you take two identical engines, with one having a longer stroke, and spin them around a billion times at 4,600 RPM, the engine with the longer stroke is going to fail first. When the pistons have to travel that much further, they're going to put that much more strain on the bearings, case, crank, and rods. Even if JR built your CS with his legendary balancing, you're still saying basic physics don't apply. Yes they do. |
That's on paper analyzing. |
Agreed, decades ago the Union Pure Oil Performance Tests listed such things as pistons speeds and IIRC piston travel per mile (both partially stroke related) for new cars with the idea that the piston speed correlated to wear and thus how long an engine would last. By the mid sixties at least this theory had been pretty well disproven. In the long run things like rod ratios have probably proven more critical to engine life than stroke.
FWIW a Type 4 engine with a 66/71 mm stoke will far out last a Type 1 engine with a 66 mm stoke and a WBXer engine with a 76mm(?) stroke will outlast either, once the rod bolts have been changed out at least. There are just many things more important to engine life than just stroke by itself. |
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Stuartzickefoose
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Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| JDub113 wrote: |
What is this lever back here? Nothing is hooked to it.
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the resistor block and double relay should be mounted to your firewall, not laying on the engine tin, and one of the securing screws holds the ground wire to the fuel pump down too, so i would figure out why those arnt connected, assuming you havent already replaced those parts to their proper locations.... 
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2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
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VWBajaTruck
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2015
Posts: 8
Location: SLC, Utah
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:51 pm Post subject: Supplier's for Type 4 engine cases |
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| Does anyone know of a reputable supplier for Type 4 engine cases? |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5412
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:03 am Post subject: |
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No new sources of T4 cases. There are still a lot of good old ones out there. Chances are you won't have to line bore it, but do measure the bearing bores to be certain. If they are out of round send the case out to get bored for the next oversize bearings.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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VWBajaTruck
Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2015
Posts: 8
Location: SLC, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| No new sources of T4 cases. There are still a lot of good old ones out there. Chances are you won't have to line bore it, but do measure the bearing bores to be certain. If they are out of round send the case out to get bored for the next oversize bearings. |
Appreciated... |
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Channing81
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to SGKent for finding this, you can get new cases directly from VW. Not cheap, but possible.
| SGKent wrote: |
| Channing81 wrote: |
| Would a VW dealer be the source for a new case? Is it a universal case for all Type 4's. Thanks |
I don't differ with BusDaddy on this. It is a hard decision for someone who wants it done right. The next used case could be better or worse. That is why I would not pay high dollar for a used case unless the seller is known to buy back parts that are no good. There are many cases out there stamped GEX that have different sides to them - meaning two different cases made into one.
You and your machinist did what was needed to do it right. Your cheapest option is to run it as is and know it won't last for another 100,000 miles. When is unknown. The saddle appears to be collapsing. Make sure everything gets balanced as something beat it to death.
The next option is to align bore. It is not optimal but it is the next possible solution. My engine was alignbored. I would not do it again as T4 alignbores aren't as common and precise as T1 boring.
The next option is a new case. $1844 USD plus shipping from Germany which is not as bad as you might think. Downside is that it may have both the dipstick on top and in front, with VW using one part fits all for buses, T4 and 914's etc. This is the most expensive path. Choose wisely. It may not be worth the price unless you want a perfect engine. These are 40 year old cars. You might also ask Adrian what he would do.
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Tcash
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