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dawerks
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: HowTo: Paint process for a daily driver. |
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.9) Do your metal work to make it safe/look good. You will have to finish your metal work to a higher degree as I advocate NO filler.
1) DA with 80 Grit
2) Poly Surfacer (like Featherfill)
3a) Flat car. If you want your car really flat or if it has waves, start with 100 Grit on block and work up to 400.
3b) If you're fine with how it mostly looks, start at 180 and go to 400.
You might have to redo step 2 if you go too far or didn't spray enough Poly.
4) TOPCOAT. I like 2 coats of Single Stage. Done.
That's it. You can skip the crazy routine of Epoxy, high build, filler, blocking over and over. It's expensive and you wind up with a gooey chemical mix of 10 different products. 
Pros;
- you won't have a huge build up of crap all over your car.
- no iso's! None in Featherfill, and usually none in Single stage.
- cheaper! Less chemicals to buy work and most of them are wasted if you're doing one car.
- faster, you only have to strip your car down and prep for 2 (or 3) times of spraying vs up to 10 the other way.
- redos are much easier and even the weakest magnet will stick.
Plus you can say, NO FILLER on my car. (Assuming you get it all off on the .9 step that is).
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Last edited by dawerks on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Matt K.
Paint and Body Nutcase
Joined: January 14, 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: Hemet, So Cal.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: HowTo: Paint process for a daily driver. |
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| dawerks wrote: |
.9) Do your metal work to make it safe/look good. You will have to finish your metal work to a higher degree as I advocate NO filler.
1) DA with 80 Grit
2) Poly Surfacer (like Slicksand)
3a) Flat car. If you want your car really flat or if it has waves, start with 100 Grit on block and work up to 400.
3b) If you're fine with how it mostly looks, start at 180 and go to 400.
You might have to redo step 2 if you go too far or didn't spray enough Poly.
4) TOPCOAT. I like 2 coats of Single Stage. Done.
That's it. You can skip the crazy routine of Epoxy, high build, filler, blocking over and over. It's expensive and you wind up with a gooey chemical mix of 10 different products.
Pros;
- you won't have a huge build up of crap all over your car.
- no iso's! None in Slicksand, and usually none in Single stage.
- cheaper! Less chemicals to buy work and most of them are wasted if you're doing one car.
- faster, you only have to strip your car down and prep for 2 (or 3) times of spraying vs up to 10 the other way.
- redos are much easier and even the weakest magnet will stick.
Plus you can say, NO FILLER on my car. (Assuming you get it all off on the .9 step that is). |
10 times........Wow 
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dawerks
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it can get pretty ridiculous. I've done the epoxy, 2K high build, filler etc dance step easily 10 times on a car. I was also learning/new, but the number of steps involved can really overwhelm a newbie. (Or is it Paranoia??)
The magic is in the Slicksand/Featherfill. It removes the Epoxy/2K right out of the equation. AND if you're lucky or good with metal (or just don't care), the whole filler step.
I'm a convert!
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luckystiff
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005
Posts: 2252
Location: hickory,nc
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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it also soaks up water like a sponge. and you can use epoxy begining to ready to lay down you finish coats should you so desire.
a coupla coats of epoxy followed by slicksand or the like(i like Upol's version) and then when you're in the ballpark you can throw a coupla more coats of epoxy over the slicksand type and seal it all up before your finish coats.
Southern Polyurethanes makes a very kickass epoxy thats very reasonable priced to boot...ken....
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dawerks
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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If you can keep most of the water off the car (wetsanding is ok), then the epoxy step is pointless.
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: Re: HowTo: Paint process for a daily driver. |
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| dawerks wrote: |
.9) Do your metal work to make it safe/look good. You will have to finish your metal work to a higher degree as I advocate NO filler.
1) DA with 80 Grit
2) Poly Surfacer (like Slicksand)
3a) Flat car. If you want your car really flat or if it has waves, start with 100 Grit on block and work up to 400.
3b) If you're fine with how it mostly looks, start at 180 and go to 400.
You might have to redo step 2 if you go too far or didn't spray enough Poly.
4) TOPCOAT. I like 2 coats of Single Stage. Done.
That's it. You can skip the crazy routine of Epoxy, high build, filler, blocking over and over. It's expensive and you wind up with a gooey chemical mix of 10 different products.
Pros;
- you won't have a huge build up of crap all over your car.
- no iso's! None in Slicksand, and usually none in Single stage.
- cheaper! Less chemicals to buy work and most of them are wasted if you're doing one car.
- faster, you only have to strip your car down and prep for 2 (or 3) times of spraying vs up to 10 the other way.
- redos are much easier and even the weakest magnet will stick.
Plus you can say, NO FILLER on my car. (Assuming you get it all off on the .9 step that is). |
How many years will this hold up??
I'm only asking, because I know using epoxy first will give a minimum of 14 years (BTDT, and it still looks as good as the day it was shot). And this was done in Michigan, on a vehicle that has lived it's entire life here (road salt included).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
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dawerks
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Bobnotch; It's irrelevant what epoxy was used. The topcoat is what kept the salt/elements off it.
I betcha this way will last longer than building up mils (or worse) of filler/epoxy/2K/epoxy. Every step has a chance of failure and compounded by the number of steps.
The 'new' way; There's the substrate. Slicksand. Topcoat. That's it. Wrap your head around the fact that 4-5 different items are not needed, just 2!
As I stated, this is for a decent driver or something that needs to be done quickly or for a newbie. I know, I got confused and wasted alot of time and money on the 'old cycle'. Why? I'm not painting cars for a living, I just want something nice, with good results for less money.
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pdivizzle0112
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Joined: July 13, 2011
Posts: 260
Location: Toluca Lake
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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this is a good thread.
im tired of everyone recommending a million steps for a decent paint job on a daily thats bound to get beat up regardless |
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schell '59
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Location: RI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:05 am Post subject: |
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....and all this time i've been doing it wrong.
oh boy here we go...feather fill really?...the product has been around since the late 70's...and so sealer before color?...how about primer after feather fill?...your really trusting your feather fill as your last under coat before color?
dude i don't know..but it's your paint jobs not mine.
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dawerks
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Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| pdivizzle0112 wrote: |
this is a good thread.
im tired of everyone recommending a million steps for a decent paint job on a daily thats bound to get beat up regardless |
I know what you mean. Featherfill is as strong if not stronger than any non-polyurethane epoxy. Plus it sands.
So why do all those extraneous steps?? Because that's the way it's always been done?
There's a 100K Porsche 356 that looks drop dead gorgeous that was done just in these steps. It was metal worked beautifully so there's no filler needed. Then it was poly'd, blocked, painted. Proof of concept! Made me a convert!
The caveat is this car will probably never even leave the garage, but if they are willing to do that to such an expensive (SOLD!) Porsche, then it's going to be good enough for almost any VW.
Think about if you're doing a VW Bus. Really, you're going to epoxy the whole thing? Then 2K High build the whole outside? And re epoxy the whole thing? That's about 20 gallons of material (exageratted of course).
For buses, this is good way to get them on the road and looking decent.
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dawerks
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Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| schell '59 wrote: |
....and all this time i've been doing it wrong.
oh boy here we go...feather fill really?...the product has been around since the late 70's...and so sealer before color?...how about primer after feather fill?...your really trusting your feather fill as your last under coat before color?
dude i don't know..but it's your paint jobs not mine. |
Do you think there's only way way to get to the end product?
Products are routinely refined and new technology is added to them. The idea might be around but check out the specs on Evercoats products, they've changed since the 70's. You're not using old paint from the 70's are you??
Yes, no sealer before colour. No primer after the poly (it IS a primer! ta da!). Yes, I'm trusting the poly as my only 'coat'. On baremetal, all the way up to topcoat. Read the tech sheets, I do!
I'm not looking to start an argument, I'm just presenting a different way to do things, that apparently other people don't' know about. I use my 2 favorite words ever invented; caveat emptor!!
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Matt K.
Paint and Body Nutcase
Joined: January 14, 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: Hemet, So Cal.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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There are many ways to" Skin a Cat". Some people like doing things a certain way.....I, like Schell, like to do it the way we have done it for years. I always like to incorporate a new product.......but certain ways are good for the long haul and some are not.
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This is my 23rd year in the Auto Body/Paint Game!
*Take a look at some of my custom paint: http://s110.photobucket.com/albums/n119/mrpaint_2006/ .( NOTE: these are some older jobs but still neat.) |
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luckystiff
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005
Posts: 2252
Location: hickory,nc
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| dawerks wrote: |
| If you can keep most of the water off the car (wetsanding is ok), then the epoxy step is pointless. |
trust me JUST the water introduced from wetsanding is going straight to the bare surface under that slicsand. unless it's changed slicsand also wasn't recommended for Direct To Metal(DTM) last i knew.
if you just want to "skip a few steps" many companies make good ultra high build 2k that IS dtm approved. again Upol makes a pretty nice primer that fits this mold. and most can be mixed appropriately and sprayed as a sealer before topcoating.
do yourself a favor and enroll in a night class of autobody repair at your local community college. you might be suprised what that could teach you for a small investment....ken....
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schell '59
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Joined: January 05, 2006
Posts: 1405
Location: RI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Listen dude..if I remember correctly wasn't is you who found a " new " way of sanding clear with dry sanding on a d/ a?
So here's the deal,you can't dtm slick sand or even feather fill only sikkens poly surfacer allows that end even they don't recommend it.
I'm only going to say this for the thousanth time...epoxy is NOT a build,it's an adhesion promotor period...you don't finsh,start or even sand epoxy and any real bosy man knows this.
Epoxy is for raw steel or for better adhesion...hi build is for leveling and for hiding deisel sand scratches...and sufacer is for light scratches and light leveling. So to say you can feather fill an entire car...finish sanding with 600 wet or dry and color it is your call...but after a few thousand paint jobs can tell you this...
It will fail over short period of time..feather fill,poly surfacers and the like are for leveling and finish body work..not an under lament for color.
Period.
Do what you want and me and the other guys will do what we do...I can tell you I have been there and done that and yes there is more ways than one to skin a cat..but there is a right way and a wrong way to do anything...including body work,regardless of what hero new( or old) product is out there and what was seen or heard on you tube,Internet or from a buddies friend at the water cooler.
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schell '59
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Location: RI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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...just so you know Dawerks...not hatin' on your ways or even your plans of attack....you just gotta remember, people who follow these steps in process and/or advise, could have different out comes...not your the problem.
welcome to the world of body work.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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pussies.....i sand down to bare metal and hit it with color. done. 
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schell '59
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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krylon.
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CanadianBug
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Posts: 222
Location: South Western Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using polyester primer for quite a few years and have some excellent results. If you want something straight and don't mind lots of blocking, it's the way to go.
There are only a couple brands of poly primer that I know of that are DTM capable - Sikkens, Klassen and a newer one from Evercoat called Superbuild (I think that's the name, haven't used it yet). Slicksand and Feather Fill are not recommended for bare metal applications.
Most times, unless specifically not recommended by the poly manufacturer, putting a good epoxy down first is the best way to do things, doesn't add much expense or time, and can eliminate a LOT of problems down the road. Think of it as insurance.
I've topcoated directly over polyester primer and would never do it again. I wasn't happy with the fisheye issues (remember, this stuff is like a sponge and any contaminants in contact with it leads to problems) or the colour holdout. There was a fair amount of sinkage weeks after the spray job leading to re-dos. I finish everything with a minimum 600 grit, too aggressive a grit was not the cause of my problems.
The expense of the redo took away any money I thought I had saved by not using a polyurethane primer over top of the polyester. There wasn't much profit in the job the first time around. There was even less the second time!
There are very few shortcuts in prep and paintwork.
We go through the steps we go through because trial and error has told us what works and what doesn't.
I've been doing this for 30 years and I bet my methods are very similar to anyone else's who has spent a significant amount of time in the same trade.
Listen to us Pros. Learn from our mistakes. |
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schell '59
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Joined: January 05, 2006
Posts: 1405
Location: RI
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:40 am Post subject: |
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^^^ we don't know much cuz we paint vw's....if we were on tv shows or painting hot rods every day then maybe...just maybe people might think we know what we are talking about.
Maybe.
FYI,I love polysurfacer...sikkens only though,it's the way to make anything look the part...even daily drivers..all of the cars onnmy web site except for the 68/69 camaros are driven daily till the crap weather comes in and all of them were painted in weeks time and not months.
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marklee
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Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 821
Location: Flintshire, North Wales
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: |
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for some years in the UK the refinish process on new panels was simply wet on wet etch primer coat then base colour then clear.....baked to a shine in an oven and out........production line body repair with little thought for quality just profit for the painter on piece work.....me? good metal finishing or a spot of filler, finished to 400 grit. 2K high build primer, lots of block sanding up to 800 grit then colour/clear...
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